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MG:
I'm a little confused after reading.

This is what I've gathered from reading and there are some holes in my understanding of what is being taught here.

First Jesus is created (human) and is not a part of a trinity. He came out of the Father and is separate from the Father and is not the one and only God. He is called God though by what God the Father gave to him?

Then all the old testament scriptures about Jehovah and the "I AM" are all referring to Jesus and not God the Father since God the Father wasn't revealed until the new testament.

I can't seem to put this all together and make sense of it.

I walk with fear and trembling on this one because it seems critical to know the truth about who Jesus is.

Craig:
To me this was not a hard subject to comprehend, but it is one that we've had pounded into us for years.
Just because we don't believe the trinity doctrine does not mean we make Jesus out to less.  In my opinion it makes Him even greater.

Craig

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

Letters and answers from Ray


--- Quote ---Hi,

I was wondering if you would like to debate James White or Robert Morey on the Trinity?

If your position is biblical and the truth, then you should have no problem proving it.

[Ray Replies]

Why is this important to you?  Do they have proof of the trinity that you are unable to present yourself?

I have had people send me literally hundreds of scripture verses that contain the word "spirit" or "spirit of God" and then stated that all these hundreds of verses prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a trinity.   I have people sending me attachments containing hundreds of pages of material on a number of subjects that I cover, with the claim that if I would read this material then surely I would see that I am wrong in my beliefs.

I have never in my life witnessed a Biblical debate in which either side was the least bit interested in or gave any real attention to what the opposing side said.  Here is an example of a typical debate. I give a Scripture verse to make a particular point concerning a subject.  The person with an opposing view then cites ANOTHER DIFFERENT SCRIPTURE WHICH HE BELIEVES CONTRADICTS THE VERSE THAT I PRESENTED!  As though the Scriptures contradict and the one with the most CONTRADICTING scriptures wins the debate! Unbelievable foolishness and stupidity!

For years I have asked some fairly simple and straight-forward questions regarding the trinity, to which no one has ever answered. No they just go to other things and other scriptures, but NEVER answer the contradiction to a trinity theory that I present.

I really don't have the time for this, but let me just present a few examples once more to prove my point.

The trinity theory supposes that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, together, as one unity, not as individual units, but together are ONE, constitute the ONE GOD.

Now then:

Why in the dozens of Scriptural discussions regarding the unity of Jesus with God His Father is the Holy Spirit of God NOT included?

If all three are EQUALLY CO-EQUAL, why does Jesus Christ HAVE A GOD, yet the Father is NEVER SAID TO HAVE a God?

Jesus said He didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him. Why? Because the Father freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed.  Jesus had ALL power and ALL authority and ALL judgment in heaven and earth.  Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity?   No, my friend. God GAVE Jesus all these things--they had an origin and the origin is GOD THE FATHER.

Jesus Christ will be SUBJECT to God His Father for all eternity (See I Cor. 15:24-28). Where are we told that the Father will be subject to Jesus Christ for all eternity?   And, of course, the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in this discussion in I Cor. 15.

If the trinity is true, how is it that Jesus Christ was CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but is the SON OF GOD THE FATHER?

There are a few reasons why I don't believe in the trinity theory.  I believe they are good, well-founded, sane, Scriptural reasons. Since NO ONE has ever proves these Scriptures wrong by other Scriptures, why would I want to debate someone who would avoid these questions like the plague and just go in a thousand other directions trying to prove the unproveable?

Send these question of mine regarding the trinity to your scholarly friends and let them give me a brief explanation of each without going into HUNDREDS of unrelated Scriptures regarding God's spirit.

Sincerely,

Ray
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---Ray-  I just happened on your site and skimmed several of your articles.  Without getting too long winded, I wanted to point out a few "problems" with what I read.

In regard to the Trinity:

1. You say "Is Christ God? YES HE IS!" and at the same time, just a few lines earlier, you use John 17:3 to support that the Father is the only true God.  Your explanation refers to Psalm 82:6, which referred to the Judges & Kings divinely appointed to carry out God's will.  Surely Christ is not on their level.  So if the Father is the only true God, how can you say Christ is God?   There is only one true God (John 17:3) so Christ must be a false god.  See 2 Sam 7:22.

2.  You say Christ is worthy of worship and show verses where he was worshipped, but WHY should he be worshipped?  You never explain this. God the Father clearly states repeatedly in the Old Testament that NO OTHER GODS were to be worshipped, that God was a jealous God.  Why did Christ not rebuke those who worshipped him > and direct them to the Father, who had given him this authority? (see Ex. 20:4&5, 23:13, 34:14, 2Sam 7:22, 2Kings 17:35, to name a few)

You state that Christ is God and correctly use Hebrews 1:8 as support.  But there is only ONE TRUE GOD (John 17:3).  Sounds like you just made an argument for the Trinity (well, maybe just two out of three)  See also Isaiah 9:6 where the son (savior) is called "Everlasting FATHER"

We "Trinitarians" don't pretend to comprehend the Trinity.   Indeed, scripture reads as if Christ and the Father are separate, but then how does one reconcile that there is only one true God and both the Father and Christ are God! (as you yourself state).  The answer for us, Ray, is that both are true.  We don't understand it, but then a God who can be fully understood by my human brain is a very small god.

Most importantly, your doctrine of no hell and ultimate salvation for all is an insult to the apostles and early Christian martyrs.  Why in the world would these men sacrifice their lifestyles, careers, and their very lives to spread a gospel message that wasn't necessary?  Yet Christ gave them this mission before ascending into heaven, to preach his gospel.  why?  If I knew that everyone would be ultimately saved, why would I risk everything to deliver an unnecessary message?

[Ray Replies]

Dear Layne:

Thank you for your comments. I too do not claim to understand all mysteries.

However, I try to stay in the parameter of what the Scriptures reveal. The Scriptures do NOT reveal that the Holy Spirit OF God is really the Holy Spirit GOD. It is ludicrous to say that the spirit of God is a third part of a triune God when we are plainly told that Jesus Christ was "CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit" but after Birth is called "The Son of the Father" rather than the "Son of the Holy Spirit."   Jesus Christ HAS A GOD (God the Father). God the Father DOES NOT HAVE A GOD!!! Jesus Christ is and always will be "SUBJECT" to God His Father (I Cor. 15:24-28). No Trinitarian has ever even attempted to reconcile such Scriptures with a trinity theory.

Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.

The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures. NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.

I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead."  Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.

We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOME ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.

Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:

    "Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).

Now notice this:

    "But I am telling you the truth.  It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).

Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?

What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:

    "Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).

    "That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).

Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???

Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:

    "...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world.  Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."

After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again the THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:

    "Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).

Back to John:

    "Remain IN ME.  I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).

We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:

    "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).

And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?

Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.

Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'?  God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it?  I John 2:1:

    "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.  And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!

There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!

When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!

    "Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD:  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).

    "Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IS US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).

It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!

OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.

Concerning your comments on the salvation of all, I must be short. I have written hundreds of pages on this theme and certainly have no intentions of duplicating all that in an e-mail.
 
Just because you do not understand God Word or His purpose is not solid ground for denying God's Word regarding the salvation of all. You call God's plan of universal salvation an "insult."  You do "insult" God and His Word!  You reason in your own carnal mind that it doesn't make sense for people to die for a message that isn't necessary. Who said the message isn't necessary? Not I. Not God.

People are so blinded that they are unaware that it is THROUGH the "foolishness of preaching" that men are saved!  Many carnal-minded Christians ask me nearly daily: "If God is going to save everyone, why did Christ even have to die for us?"  They say that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but this one comes pretty close!

Has anyone ever stopped to consider that it is the death of our Saviour Jesus Christ that makes it possible to save everyone in the first place? What do people mean, "WHY did He die if all will be saved?" THAT IS HOW THEY ALL GET SAVED!!!!!!! That is axiomatic. This is not rocket science. ALL have sinned. Christ died for ALL. ALL get saved because OF that Sacrifice for ALL! There is a process, however. Not all are NOW saved. But they ALL will be in the end.  Read all of my letters to Hagee and Kennedy for the proof.

You say, "If I knew that everyone would be ultimately saved, why would I risk everything to deliver an unnecessary message?"  Well, of course, you said it yourself: YOU WOULDN'T. What course in logic have you taken that REQUIRES a message to save 'SOME' but does NOT REQUIRE a message to 'SAVE ALL'?

I don't mean to be demeaning, Layne, but it never ceases to amaze me how people can throw all logic to the wind when it comes to their own personal religious bias.

If there are one hundred people trapped in a burning building and ten firemen can possibly save ten of them, does that mean then that TO SAVE THEM ALL IT WOULD NOT TAKE ANY FIREMEN.  Why bring ANY fireman to the fire if our intention is to SAVE THEM ALL?  So if only a few are to be saved from the fire it WILL require firemen. But if ALL are to be save from the fire it will require NO fireman.   So some firemen would be willing to "risk everything" (to use your very own words) to same a FEW, but that it "wasn't necessary" for them to "risk everything" to launch an "unnecessary" rescue if they were to save EVERYONE?  Maybe you have a better argument than you have presented here? Trust me, I HAVE HEARD THEM ALL!

Do you know why people as yourself present such foolish and unscriptural arguments against God's plain declarations?  I'll tell you. Because trying to contradict the very WORD OF GOD is itself the epitome of ignorance and foolishness.  There are THOUSANDS of pages that have been written by far better scholars than myself (I am a roofer, not a scholar) presenting HUNDREDS of Scriptures teaching the ultimate salvation of all. The etymology of every word has been searched out and proven to harmonize with the salvation of all.

Read the first ten pages of my letter to John Hagee. There you will find ample proof from the Scriptures that there is not even a hint of eternal torture taught in either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. Greek "aions" are NOT English "eternities." I absolutely, Scripturally, PROVE that. If you think you can disprove it--give it your best shot.

Gotta go. Many more e-mails to answer. I pray to God that He will grant you a spirit of humility, wisdom, and understanding, if it be His will at this time.

Sincerely,
 
Ray
--- End quote ---

MG:
I don't think I asked my question right. I don't believe in the Trinity. The part I'm confused about is whether Jesus existed before he was human. My confusion came from an email you posted. I'll go see if I can find it.

MG:
Here is the email that confused me.


--- Quote ---After reading your paper (and the subsequent emails and replies) on the
concept of the trinity, I was still left with questions on the nature of
Jesus' divinity. All things were created through Jesus as I understand. I
was almost left with the impression that Jesus Himself was created before all this took place.
Was the monotheistic God of the OT the Father alone or Father/Son duality; (albeit, not trinity)?


Dear Joshua:

I don't know if anymore explaining will help you.  It is all in my trinity paper. The Old Testament knows NOTHING of a "God the Father."  Jesus Christ came to REVEAL THE FATHER, and that for the first time in the history of the world:  "...The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He has DECLARED [Gk: 'unfolds'] Him" (John 1:18).  Jesus Christ IS the GOD of the Old Testament. Jesus Christ IS Jehovah.

God be with you,

Ray
--- End quote ---

So then Jesus was created human, but also existed before he was human? If that is true then what was he before he was human and was he created before he was human?

Joey Porter:
I'm sure everyone here believes Jesus existed before He was on the earth in human form.  

As far as Him being "created," I wouldn't go that far.  He does not exist as "an eternally co-equal member of a 3 person Godhead" but that doesn't mean that He was "created."  There is no clear scripture stating He was created, though we do have:

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

In Romans 1, the worship of created things is clearly portrayed as wrong.

Again, we read:

Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

This wouldn't make sense if Christ were created.  We wouldn't be a firstfruits of Christ.  On the other hand:

1 Corinthians 15
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits;then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ is THE firstfruits, and we are a kind of firstfruits of all that God created, which can not include Christ, because He is THE firstfruits.

So, as not to add or take away from the scriptures, I simply believe that Jesus is the Word of God, who came from God, and walked as a human before returning to God.

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