God 'changed his mind'

[microlink]

Father is supreme, being greater than everything, including Jesus.

Joh_14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Greater = G3187 = (interesting can also refer to age) ??

Peace

[Kat]

This thread is blowing me away, Im starting to see things I had not understood before. I know Jesus is a created being but at the same time He is also God to me because everything that was made was made by Jesus.

I always thought Jesus was inferior to God the Father because God the Father always existed whereas Christ was created.

I'm starting to see that the entire bible is about Jesus, is it right to say that it was Jesus who spoke to Moses from the burning bush? Or was it a messenger sent from God who was speaking  ? Was it Jesus who said   ( I am that I am ) or was it a messenger from God ? 

Would it be right to say that God the Father and Jesus are totally equal in knowledge and power ?     

Exo 3:2  And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
v. 3  Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
v. 4  So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."

Rick, when you read this passage down in verse 4 you can see that it was indeed God, the Son who spoke to Moses from the bush.

Exo 3:14  And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Here is plainly states again that it was the Son who spoke to Moses. Now He spoke and appeared, in human form (accept the one time He showed Moses His glorious backside in the cleft of the rock) quite a few times in the OT. He is the Spokesman/Voice for the Father.

John 5:37  And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

The Son is what the Father brought forth 'of Himself' to be over this creation. I think it's like the Father just produced/created more of Himself, in the Being of the Son (with form and voice), to use as God of this creation. They are one (not separate), but the Son is the part of the Father that does the work in this world.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

Christ said you can not see or hear the Father, so He made the Son to be His Spokesman and the image of Himself.

John 14:9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
v. 7  "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

The Son was equal to the Father in that He is God and the very essence of the Father.

Php 2:6  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

But He is not the Father and clearly states the Father was greater.

John 14:28  You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

John 13:16  Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.

John 10:29  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;

Jesus was not equal in the sense that there is 2 distinct Gods. No, they are one as in completely united in every way, singleness of heart. But the Son was brought forth by the Father, and His purpose is to do the will of His Father for this creation.

John 5:30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 14:31  But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

The Father first brought forth the Son and then "through Him" created this universe/world "for Him" and put Him to be God and ruler over it. All for the Son, but by the will and power of the Father.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

Acts 9 is a record of Saul/Paul's awesome experience with the Lord God that he thought he was already serving correctly.

Joel

[John from Kentucky]

Jesus did not have all knowledge when He was a human.

Before He was a human Jesus had all power in heaven and earth.  After His Resurrection Jesus had all power in heaven and earth.  But, when He was a human, Jesus did not have all power or all knowledge.

How do I know this?  Because I believe the Scriptures and do not ignore Scriptures that do not agree with a personal opinion.

In Philippians 2:7, we learn that Jesus emptied Himself from His attributes of God and became flesh.

In Mark 13:32, we learn that Jesus did not know when the end of this age would be.  Now that isn't just a little lack of knowledge, that is a huge lack.  The next most important event in history is the return of the Great King and Anointed One, the 1st Resurrection of the Elect, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on the earth.

Jesus lacked the knowledge of when that event would occur.  However, those who do not believe the Scriptures ignore or explain that Scripture away.

A second witness is Mark 5:30-32.  Jesus did not know who touched Him.  He perceived that the power of the Spirit went through Him, but He did not know who touched Him.  So He again lacked knowledge.  Those who do not believe the Scriptures will of course ignore or explain this Scripture away.

There is other scriptural proof, but those who ignore the two witnesses will not accept other scriptures that disagree with their personal opinion.

Jesus had no godly power as a Human.  Jesus said that He of His own self could do nothing.  That it was the Father in Him that did the works.  Thus Jesus did not Himself perform any of the miracles He did.

We all need to guard against thinking our personal opinions are true, even if others make us think we are correct.

We must have at least two Scriptures in support of the Truth and no other scriptures can contradict a Truth.  Scriptures trump personal opinions.

...But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.  Isa 66:2

[santgem]

Jesus did not have all knowledge when He was a human.

Before He was a human Jesus had all power in heaven and earth.  After His Resurrection Jesus had all power in heaven and earth.  But, when He was a human, Jesus did not have all power or all knowledge.

How do I know this?  Because I believe the Scriptures and do not ignore Scriptures that do not agree with a personal opinion.

In Philippians 2:7, we learn that Jesus emptied Himself from His attributes of God and became flesh.

In Mark 13:32, we learn that Jesus did not know when the end of this age would be.  Now that isn't just a little lack of knowledge, that is a huge lack.  The next most important event in history is the return of the Great King and Anointed One, the 1st Resurrection of the Elect, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on the earth.

Jesus lacked the knowledge of when that event would occur.  However, those who do not believe the Scriptures ignore or explain that Scripture away.

A second witness is Mark 5:30-32.  Jesus did not know who touched Him.  He perceived that the power of the Spirit went through Him, but He did not know who touched Him.  So He again lacked knowledge.  Those who do not believe the Scriptures will of course ignore or explain this Scripture away.

There is other scriptural proof, but those who ignore the two witnesses will not accept other scriptures that disagree with their personal opinion.

Jesus had no godly power as a Human.  Jesus said that He of His own self could do nothing.  That it was the Father in Him that did the works.  Thus Jesus did not Himself perform any of the miracles He did.

We all need to guard against thinking our personal opinions are true, even if others make us think we are correct.

We must have at least two Scriptures in support of the Truth and no other scriptures can contradict a Truth.  Scriptures trump personal opinions.

...But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.  Isa 66:2

Hi JFK,
Greetings!

I myself could do nothing/ emptied Himself

You have your own explanations and points. That two witnesses is really necessary.

[lareli]

Mark 5 :30,32

Doesn't say Jesus didn't know who touched Him. I'm not saying He knew or didn't know, and I don't have an opinion on the answer either. But it doesn't say that He didn't know. It says He asked who touched Him. There's lots of places in scripture where God and Jesus ask questions that they knew the answers to.

God asked Adam and Eve questions. God asked Satan questions. Jesus asked the disciples questions.

How can you know whether or not Jesus knew who touched Him?

[rick]

Hi Kat and thank you for your response.

So Jesus came forth from the Father, now what I'm understanding here is that Jesus is more like an extension of God the Father.

We human being are made from the dust of the earth, not created but made an also being made in the image of God , not in His image now but will be , future tense. Ultimately we are all from God but Christ is directly from God where as human being are not directly from God.

So when Jesus came forth from God , Jesus was instantly God and will always be God, Jesus is equal to God the Father but God the father is primary an Jesus is secondary in status only and also are two separate entity that are one in spirit or one in accord or singleness of mind or thought.

[Kat]

So Jesus came forth from the Father, now what I'm understanding here is that Jesus is more like an extension of God the Father.
v

Jesus is equal to God the Father but God the father is primary an Jesus is secondary in status only and also are two separate entity that are one in spirit or one in accord or singleness of mind or thought.

Rick in your post above I have underlined your comments and I don't feel they both can really be correct. If the Son is more like an extension of the Father, then they are not separate. See what I mean? I guess it's difficult because we want to think of their being Father and Son the same way humans are. A human baby comes out of the mother an is a separate being, I do not think it is that same way with the divine connection between Father and Son. Notice something interesting in this passage.

John 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
v. 30  I and My Father are one."

In verse 28 Christ says nobody can snatch His sheep from "My hand," then in the very next verse speaking of the same thing He says nobody can snatch them from "My Father's hand." Another indication that shows how Christ is not actually separate. It is a conundrum, that through they are not separate, yet the Son is His own being and all the Scripture work together to point to the same thing, they are one, because the Father is in Him, literally.

John 17:21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Kat,


I been reading the lake of fire series and had not gotten into Ray's bible studies, Last night I started reading the transcripts from the Nashville Conf 07 of who and what is Jesus & who is His Father.

This is incredible stuff, I could not stop reading, I kept reading till like 3 o'clock in the morning.
There is so much stuff there an I was getting it, I was understanding all these things Ray was talking about.

I mean this whole thing with God for me started off with a deep belief in hell and being tortured forever, all I wanted to know was the truth about my destiny and why would God torture anyone  forever for sinning  the few short year that we live.     

Now having some truth , I can see how silly it all was believing that God is going to do horrible things to us sinners knowing we cannot help ourselves.

I can't explain what is happening to me inwardly , I mean this morning I went to bed and I'm laying there just thinking about all these things Ray was talking about and I start to feel this connection with God ,

I am overwhelmed in a good way to understand these things Ray is talking about because that which is false doctrine is losing  its footing or root in me.

I am so thankful to receive all this truth I'm getting, I work many hours a day and don't have much time to study, I wish I did but its not God's plan for me to have all this time to study.

I want to say I was lead to this site by God, no doubt in me at all about that and I was lead here because I had one question I kept asking God , why are you going to make me go to hell because I like to do things you don't approve of knowing well I can not help myself.

Not only did God answer my question about hell but he open this door in my life where all this truth is available to me.

Today I understand there is so much I don't know about God but what I do know causes me to love God because I'm exposed to God's truth after all these years of not having what I found here at B.T.

There is so much knowledge to learn here and this knowledge is setting me free and separating me from the world I once knew, yes from all this deception that is in the world, the world I'm no longer apart of but only passing through it.