144.000 ?

[Kat]

Okay let's just fall back on what Ray had to say about this and leave it at that.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7047.0 -------------

What were the King James translators thinking when they translated Psalms 119:160 as: "Thy word is true from the beginning"? I mean did somebody think He lied someplace along the line? I mean some times there are some simplistic things stated in the Scripture, but that verse is almost an oxymoron to say God's Word was Truth from the beginning. Well that word can be translated "beginning," but sometimes Hebrew and Greek words have rather different meanings and you have to determine from the text. Of course any scholar can as in;

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning...
Rotherham - The sum of thy word, is truth...
CLV - The sum of Your word is truth...
ASV - The sum of thy word is truth...
YLT - The sum of Thy word is truth...

They all have that it is the SUM of God's word that is truth! Not that His word was truth "from the beginning." But King James changed the word order, that's not the right word order. Now the sum of God's Word is truth, that is such an amazing, spiritual, Scriptural, profound, eternal Truth and it's lost in the translation. Because that is the only place it says that specifically that way and it's lost in the translation. I didn't know that until like eight years ago or whatever. All my life reading this and I never knew what that Scripture said. "The SUM of Thy Word is truth." 

Well we can dissect that a little bit... not that any part of God's Word is not truth. But if "the sum" equals the truth, maybe part of the sum only equals part of the truth. I mean it's all true, but it is only part of this truth, there is more. 

Now in the Scripture it says;

Isa 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

I just thought about that this morning, I just thought about this for the first time. Do you know what that statement contradicts? CONTEXT! That contradicts the god of context, context, context... flat out contradicts it. Because they say if you take, "here a little and there a little," what are you doing? Pulling it out of context, see.
---------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Ian,

I don't disagree that the word can mean, the foremost, the beginning, etc... as this is part of the way ro'sh is translated at times. It is translated as "head" the most (like 80% of the time or something if my eye balling math is correct) and indeed means "head." We could interpret that to mean beginning of the Word of God but many times the sentence structure and the positioning of a word play a big role in ultimately defining the word itself in that sentence. Many many many translators with extensive experience in transliterating and translation of the languages (both hebrew, greek, and english) felt it was more accurately rendered as "SUM."

I see no harm in interpreting the verse the way you desire but as ray pointed out, it is rather an oxymoron, and the real meaning is entirely lost. It is profitable to understand the verse as many other translators feel it was meant to be understood. It gives us a more complete understanding of how we are to interpret the rest of scripture. In it's totality, as a SUM. My belief in this is not merely left to translations and man's words but to other verses of scripture that testify to this idea (2 Peter 1:20, 2 Corinthians 13:1, Matthew 18:16 Proverb 11:14) which I already quoted.

As to my original post, it was intended to confront what appeared as a dishonest claim on how many translations use the rendering of "ro'sh" as "sum." It is FAR MORE than the 3-4 you had originally spoken. Furthermore, you addressed your previous post (in which you made the claim) to myself so I felt it proper that I should respond for the sake of those who are reading and may have an interest in this matter. I think everyone benefits when we search these matters out, at least it is my sincere hope that this is edifying for the brethren, and I feel led by God's spirit to understand this verse as accurately stating "The Sum of thy Word is truth."

In Christ,
Alex

[Ian 155]

Im happy you understand what I was saying and Im happy that everyone may now, not just accept what some "Scribe" just "sticks" in,because their particular understanding/doctorate,thinks they can. (if I was taught anything, its check every angle) and by doing so one usually ends up on a profitable spiritual journey.

[PaulJayyyy]

And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."

That's CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000

Here is where L Ray states the claim to the 144000

[PaulJayyyy]

What your telling me Alex is that L Ray contradicts himself, and if your not saying it then I will. It's all a matter of perspective anyhow...

[Dave in Tenn]

Ray doesn't "contradict himself" by jumping back and forth from these things being "signified' and being literal.  If any reader does, then don't blame Ray.

Furthermore, this scripture (like ALL scripture) is not it's own interpretation.  If you don't know 'who' spiritual Israel is, then that is another lesson.

[PaulJayyyy]

I'm not blaming anyone I'm just pointing out what LRay said and what he said was that Christ is the 144000... And yes I know Jesus Christ so don't worry about giving me lessons... Oh and Alex you assume way to much.  Don't patroniz me with your simpleton questions like "do I think that Jesus will come back with a literal sword out of his mouth" your not all that and a bag of potato chips lol so settle down son

[Kat]

PaulJayyyy, I think you may have missunderstood what Ray was saying there, maybe reread that section I have below and here is another place he spoke of who the 144,000 are.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -----------------------

THE CHURCH IN PHILADELPHIA

(6)

"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar [a position of great spiritual responsibility] in the temple of my God" (3:12).

That's CHRIST,

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Corner Stone; In Whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD" (Eph. 2:21).

Christ is our Temple for we live in Him as HIS BODY, and we are the temple of God's Holy Spirit that lives and dwells IN US, and Christ IS that Spirit—"abide in Me, and I in you."

And "...he shall go no more out" That's CHRIST. We are IN Christ, we are the Body of Christ, Christ is our temple, our house, where we dwell "IN Christ."

We abide and dwell in Christ and Christ abides and dwells and lives HIS LIFE in us, so that we will "go no more out," till at the consummations of all the ages, "God may be ALL in All" (I Cor. 15:28).

"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."

That's CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God's government for the new world) are given the Father's name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.

New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html -------------------------

THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).

COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.

In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat