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Author Topic: ignorant sin versus willful sin  (Read 5130 times)

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Laren

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ignorant sin versus willful sin
« on: August 09, 2006, 06:34:44 PM »

(Heb 9:7)  But into the second, the High Priest goes only on one day of the year, and goes alone, taking with him blood, which he offers on his own behalf and on account of the sins which the people have ignorantly committed.

Heb 10:26  For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins.

1Ti 1:13  though I was previously a blasphemer and a persecutor and had been insolent in outrage. Yet mercy was shown me, because I had acted ignorantly, not having as yet believed;

Luke 23:34
 
“Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing…”




Seems to me there is a big difference between willful sin and ignorant sin.  Any ideas what the difference is.  for me willful sin is to go back to trusting self rather than the blood of Christ for forgiveness of sin.  Self effort, but only after we have come to a realization of Christs work on the cross for us.

Is the second death/LOF for willful sin only???
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Laren

  • Guest
Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2006, 08:16:18 PM »

Hi Laren, great to see you, how are things? Here is my 2 cents on this topic;

Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I think there is merit in the belief that the ignorant (of Him) and unbelievers will have a less severe LOF experience.

Joe

Thanks Joe, things are going pretty good.  

Luke 12:48 makes sense to me.

Wondering what do you see as "willful sin"?  What is sinning in ignorance??  

To me, thinking along the lines of the ministration of death is the law.  So once the law administers death, and the life in the spirit is begun, willful sin would be to turn and go back to law/self effort, rather than relying on the Holy Spirit.  The Galatians I think are good examples of this.  Seems to me, Paul's goal was to spread the good news, but he also labored very hard to help keep Christians from falling away, to keep them firm in faith.  I think he realized the horrible consequence of this, "more stripes".  



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Laren

  • Guest
Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 08:18:02 PM »

oops, yu posted while i was posting, and mine didn't work right, so i'll post again.

Thanks Joe, things are going pretty good. 

Luke 12:48 makes sense to me.

Wondering what do you see as "willful sin"?  What is sinning in ignorance??   

To me, thinking along the lines of the ministration of death is the law.  So once the law administers death, and the life in the spirit is begun, willful sin would be to turn and go back to law/self effort, rather than relying on the Holy Spirit.  The Galatians I think are good examples of this.  Seems to me, Paul's goal was to spread the good news, but he also labored very hard to help keep Christians from falling away, to keep them firm in faith.  I think he realized the horrible consequence of this, "more stripes". 

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Layla

  • Guest
Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2006, 08:21:02 PM »

Look at the Law in Leviticus:

4:1-2
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
 
4:22-23
When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty; Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:

4:27-29
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

51 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it ; if he do not utter it , then he shall bear his iniquity.

Leviticus 5

5:2-5
Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty. Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it , then he shall be guilty. Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it , then he shall be guilty in one of these. And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things , that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing :

5:14-19
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering: And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him. And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.  And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him. It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

Leviticus 6
6:1-5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found, Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and

I'm not going to try to interpret the law, but it appears to me that sins done in ignorance are automatically covered by the blood sacrifice, while sins done knowingly must be repented of and restoration made.

IMO, willful sin is to sin with the knowledge that it is a sin.  For example, since we have been taught and know that the commandment is that we should love our enemies and we choose to not love our enemies when they strike at us, then this is willful sin, imo.  In order to obtain forgiveness, it must be repented of.

Peace,
Layla
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 08:23:49 PM by Layla »
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Laren

  • Guest
Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 10:45:55 PM »

Laren & Layla,

Yes, I definitely see sinning in ignorance as what those who are never called are doing, a survival of the fittest coupled with let's eat and drink to our heart's content for tomorrow we shall die attitude, their eyes have never been opened to anything outside this physical earthly existence.

For the called who grow comfortable in their own (perceived) rightousness and the routine and social club type of worship that replaced "their first love" of wanting to know Him and grow in Him, they have become "rich and in need of nothing." This lack of growth in the spirit keeps them lusting for material goods (and other lusts) hating their enemies, gossiping, etc.

Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked:

Joe
 

Interesting to me that Saul sinned in ignorance while he was chasing down Christians and torturing them.  The pharisees would then fall into this category of sinning ignorantly too.  Hmmm.  not sure still.

I think a key verse is this

1Jo 1:8  If we claim to be already free from sin, we lead ourselves astray and the truth has no place in our hearts.

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, He is so faithful and just that He forgives us our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Sinning willfully to me is tied to claiming or thinking we are free from sin, not needing to confess as we think we already have it all together.  (same thing you were saying i think too Joe).
   

 
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orion77

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Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 11:50:27 PM »

(Psa 19:9)  The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring for ever: The ordinances of Jehovah are true, and righteous altogether.

(Psa 19:10)  More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb.

(Psa 19:11)  Moreover by them is thy servant warned: In keeping them there is great reward.

(Psa 19:12)  Who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from hidden faults.

(Psa 19:13)  Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me: Then shall I be upright, And I shall be clear from great transgression.

(Psa 19:14)  Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in thy sight, O Jehovah, my rock, and my redeemer.


Knowing how mistake ridden I am, these verses always have helped, and hope God can see His way past my many faults. 

God bless,

Gary
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Laren

  • Guest
Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2006, 12:18:36 AM »

Laren,

You have a very good habit of starting interesting threads, I have been thinking about this subject alot tonight, here is more;


2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
 
2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
 
2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Joe

great verses, makes sense to me.  But now I struggle with God's sovereign plan with that.  Why enlighten someone, have them turn away, and then chastise them more for it?  I guess I sound like the one's Paul talked about:

Rom 9:19  "Why then does God still find fault?" you will ask; "for who is resisting His will?"
Rom 9:20  Nay, but who are you, a mere man, that you should cavil against GOD? SHALL THE THING MOULDED SAY TO HIM WHO MOULDED IT, "WHY HAVE YOU MADE ME THUS?"
Rom 9:21  Or has not the potter rightful power over the clay to make out of the same lump one vessel for more honourable and another for less honourable uses?
Rom 9:22  And what if God, while choosing to make manifest the terrors of His anger and to show what is possible with Him, has yet borne with long-forbearing patience with the subjects of His anger who stand ready for destruction,
Rom 9:23  in order to make known His infinite goodness towards the subjects of His mercy whom He has prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24  even towards us whom He has called not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles?
 
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Laren

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Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2006, 05:14:25 PM »

Hi Laren,

You ask why would God "enlighten someone and have them turn away?" I don't know. Why does God call many but not all? I don't know. Why would God choose a few and not many? I don't know.

There are so many things about the mind of God that any and all of us are incompetent to understand and explain. The most important thing I have learned in the past year is not the wisdom and knowledge of events to come or of that outside of our relationship with Him one on one. What I am trying to say is that the most miraculous and wonderful evidence of His power and plan is what He has done within me, this beast.

I am a selfish, pleasure seeking, dominant bully who will do whatever it takes to meet my appetites, anything. I have lived my life like that for decades never really caring about the fallout or who I left in my wake. I am impatient, condescending and facetious, this is my natural state.

The Lord has seen fit to remove many if not most of these traits, but now even when I just think of doing what gave me so much pleasure in the past my stomach knots up like a a string of line in a Navy cadet training class. Why? I don't know.

There is so much wisdom and knowledge for us to consume, is this more important than striving for the "fruits of the spirit?" Will obtaining the "fruits of the spirit" give us a better understanding of His wisdom and plan? This time I can say YES, instead of "I don't know" when we look to be inclusive, seeing all as brothers and sisters (until they conclusively prove otherwise) with, prayer and encouragement for even those we do not consider family and friends that is when we are displaying these fruits and the windows of understanding will open even wider.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

Thanks Joe, your post really spoke to me.  I too am in the process of my carnal mind being destroyed and the life of Christ living through me.  I have gotten to the point where my search for answers often leaves me in a feeling of restlessness, and no peace.  Sometimes, I think  my search for truth has become my idol rather than being a Mary resting at his feet. 

Abiding in Him, that's where it is at. 

Joh 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


   
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Kat

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Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2006, 12:52:15 PM »

  I would like to say something about ignorant sin.
 None of us know all the truth, right. So we are all lliving with a limited understading of what is right and wrong, to various degrees, of course. So if I do or say something that I think is right and good, when it is in truth a sin, is this not ignorant sin?
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chuckusa

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Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2006, 09:23:24 PM »

Kat,

This brings a point to my mind. What about accountability? To what degree are we required to "know" what sin is? Does that make any sense?

Like for example, saying you didn't "know" you couldn't drive 125 on the interstate. Is it that once we have heard the words of our Lord, do we have a different type of accountability than say someone who had never heard. I'm trying not to exclude the concept of "free will", because of course, that would be at the core of this concept. I'm trying to find some of Rays material that directly talks about this.

Any thoughts?

Chuck
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Kat

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Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2006, 02:46:02 AM »


Ignorant - Destitute of knowledge; uninstructed or uninformed; untaught; unenlightened.

1 Tim. 1:13 "In the past I was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man.  But I received mercy because I acted ignorantly in my unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed toward me, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

Heb. 5:2 "He can deal gently with people who are ignorant and easily deceived..."

I do think God holds us more accountable when we have been given eyes to see the truth, than those who are still blinded to it. 
God is teaching mankind right from wrong by experience.  Of course there is no free will in it, it's all of God.  He brings about the circumstances that influence and cause us to make all of our choices.  At the time we make a volumtary choice it was in our heart and mind to do so.  If our choice is wrong (sinful) then we must pay the penalty for the sin, even if it is done in ignorance.  So He certainly takes into account our knowledge of the truth.

Luke 12:47 "And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.  For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required; and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Kat
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chuckusa

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Re: ignorant sin versus willful sin
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2006, 04:02:13 AM »

Thanks Kat,

I was asking because just before I saw your post, my daughter called me to the door of her bathroom where she was taking a shower and asked me to explain some things to her about accountability. So I spent 20 minutes shouting over the water trying to explain it...she asks questions at the oddest times... :)

But... I couldn't find a section of Rays teachings that I had just read a few days ago. So your post came at the right time, so we talked some more about it later.

Thanks Kat, I didn't mean to disrupt the thread, we just seemed to be thinking about the same thing, at the same time.

God bless,
Chuck

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