> General Discussions
ignorant sin versus willful sin
Laren:
(Heb 9:7) But into the second, the High Priest goes only on one day of the year, and goes alone, taking with him blood, which he offers on his own behalf and on account of the sins which the people have ignorantly committed.
Heb 10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins.
1Ti 1:13 though I was previously a blasphemer and a persecutor and had been insolent in outrage. Yet mercy was shown me, because I had acted ignorantly, not having as yet believed;
Luke 23:34
“Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing…”
Seems to me there is a big difference between willful sin and ignorant sin. Any ideas what the difference is. for me willful sin is to go back to trusting self rather than the blood of Christ for forgiveness of sin. Self effort, but only after we have come to a realization of Christs work on the cross for us.
Is the second death/LOF for willful sin only???
Laren:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 09, 2006, 07:14:31 PM ---Hi Laren, great to see you, how are things? Here is my 2 cents on this topic;
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I think there is merit in the belief that the ignorant (of Him) and unbelievers will have a less severe LOF experience.
Joe
Thanks Joe, things are going pretty good.
Luke 12:48 makes sense to me.
Wondering what do you see as "willful sin"? What is sinning in ignorance??
To me, thinking along the lines of the ministration of death is the law. So once the law administers death, and the life in the spirit is begun, willful sin would be to turn and go back to law/self effort, rather than relying on the Holy Spirit. The Galatians I think are good examples of this. Seems to me, Paul's goal was to spread the good news, but he also labored very hard to help keep Christians from falling away, to keep them firm in faith. I think he realized the horrible consequence of this, "more stripes".
--- End quote ---
Laren:
oops, yu posted while i was posting, and mine didn't work right, so i'll post again.
Thanks Joe, things are going pretty good.
Luke 12:48 makes sense to me.
Wondering what do you see as "willful sin"? What is sinning in ignorance??
To me, thinking along the lines of the ministration of death is the law. So once the law administers death, and the life in the spirit is begun, willful sin would be to turn and go back to law/self effort, rather than relying on the Holy Spirit. The Galatians I think are good examples of this. Seems to me, Paul's goal was to spread the good news, but he also labored very hard to help keep Christians from falling away, to keep them firm in faith. I think he realized the horrible consequence of this, "more stripes".
Layla:
Look at the Law in Leviticus:
4:1-2
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
4:22-23
When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty; Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
4:27-29
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
51 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it ; if he do not utter it , then he shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 5
5:2-5
Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty. Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it , then he shall be guilty. Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it , then he shall be guilty in one of these. And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things , that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing :
5:14-19
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering: And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him. And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity. And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him. It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.
Leviticus 6
6:1-5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour; Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found, Or all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto, and
I'm not going to try to interpret the law, but it appears to me that sins done in ignorance are automatically covered by the blood sacrifice, while sins done knowingly must be repented of and restoration made.
IMO, willful sin is to sin with the knowledge that it is a sin. For example, since we have been taught and know that the commandment is that we should love our enemies and we choose to not love our enemies when they strike at us, then this is willful sin, imo. In order to obtain forgiveness, it must be repented of.
Peace,
Layla
Laren:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 09, 2006, 08:54:46 PM ---Laren & Layla,
Yes, I definitely see sinning in ignorance as what those who are never called are doing, a survival of the fittest coupled with let's eat and drink to our heart's content for tomorrow we shall die attitude, their eyes have never been opened to anything outside this physical earthly existence.
For the called who grow comfortable in their own (perceived) rightousness and the routine and social club type of worship that replaced "their first love" of wanting to know Him and grow in Him, they have become "rich and in need of nothing." This lack of growth in the spirit keeps them lusting for material goods (and other lusts) hating their enemies, gossiping, etc.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
Joe
--- End quote ---
Interesting to me that Saul sinned in ignorance while he was chasing down Christians and torturing them. The pharisees would then fall into this category of sinning ignorantly too. Hmmm. not sure still.
I think a key verse is this
1Jo 1:8 If we claim to be already free from sin, we lead ourselves astray and the truth has no place in our hearts.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is so faithful and just that He forgives us our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
Sinning willfully to me is tied to claiming or thinking we are free from sin, not needing to confess as we think we already have it all together. (same thing you were saying i think too Joe).
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