All sin leads to death and...

[Ian 155]

All sin leads to death however we have this

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin "which is"  not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. ""= spurious

(1Jn 5:17)  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.


there is A sin....?

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Ian,

This does seem like a curious statement. This is how I see it right now. Feel free to agree or disagree, just sharing.

Firstly, I think its important to address the matter of "death" as seen in these verses.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

So with that in mind, there are certain sins where we are admonished to deliver that person up unto satan for the destruction of the flesh that they may be saved.

1 Corinthians 5

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

I think paul's example is more apt as to its relevance to what John said about a sin being unto death, or delivering up for destruction, but there is also this in Matthew that pertains to "excommunication" as it might be termed by some:

Matthew 18:15-17
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Now we also have examples where we are to be forgiving one another. Perhaps this is what John is talking about when he says making "requests" and then NOT making requests. I'll share that verse as you have it from concordant after this.

Luke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 Thess 3:11-14 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So now back to your verse:

1Jn 5:15 And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him."
1Jn 5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that."
1Jn 5:17 All injustice is sin, and there is a sin not to death."

I really see a very close relationship to this verse and what Paul says in Corinthians. Either way, it appears from these different verses that this is a complex matter as far as discerning when we are to forgive, separate ourselves, or deliver one up unto satan for the destruction of the flesh.

As for the specific "A sin..." I feel that there could be many sins that are not "unto death" (Worthy of deliverance unto satan for destruction of the flesh) and I don't think John is saying that there is only ONE That is not unto death so much as he is saying if a person commits A SIN of THE category or type that pertains to those which do not lead to death then make your requests for him (pray for him etc..). You can really see that when you look at "a sin" in 5:17 in the context of how "a sin" was stated in 5:16.

Feel free to agree or disagree.

In Christ,
Alex

[rick]

This subject is confusing to me because I believe if one is of god's elect their salvation is guaranteed so it would be impossible to sin a sin which leads to death concerning the elect.

Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, so to say one of the elect can sin a sin that leads to death is to say Christ failed as Christendom believes He will. 

Also one who is not the elect can sin whatever sin they sin and their salvation is still guaranteed as they emerged from God's judgement from the lake of fire.

Perhaps the translation is off, maybe, I'm not really sure tho. 

[lilitalienboi16]

Great addition rick!

Yes, the second death, the lake of fire. That brings it full circle in my humble opinion. To sin a sin to death is to become subject to the second death which we know those who overcome will have no part in. In my opinion, this all harmonizes nicely together; However, I am totally open to more input but I think you added some great food for thought rick.

As you pointed out, its not possible for the elect to be deceived or end up in the lake of fire ("sin a sin that leads to death") but you have to remember that we ourselves do not know who the elect are so from our perspective all these admonishments must be taken seriously.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Okay I believe these Scripture are additional witnesses, that show that the believers are to help one another if we see somebody needs help in understanding.

James 5:19  My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20  let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Gal 6:1  Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

This makes it clear that we should help another brother/believer who we think is being drawn astray into falsehood. This is the same thing that the Scripture in 1 John is speaking of, I will put my comments in brackets.

1John 5:16  If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin (an error/sin, but not so grave as to have lead them totally astray yet, so...) which does not lead to (spiritual) death (in this lifetime), he will ask (pray to God and if it's according to His will), and He will give him life (return that one to a right understanding) for those who commit sin not leading to (spiritual) death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Now this is speaking of a "brother," or somebody that believes these truth... but are all brothers/believers elect? What I mean is does everybody that starts out and shares this understanding of the truth go on to be faithful to the end and are actually an elect? What about the wheat and the tare? They go all the way to the end among the elect (and even appear to be elect) before they are separated (Matt 13). Now there is also Scripture that speaks of somebody who is "enlightened," yet do "fall away" and that cannot be brought back to the truth in this lifetime, or as it's put at the end of 1John 5:16 "...there is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that."

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
v. 6  if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Now this seems to be speaking of those that do receive and even embrace this truth, but do not continue in it for one reason or another... makes me think of the parable of the sower and the seed.

Luke 8:11  "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
v. 12  Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
v. 13  But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
v. 14  Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
v. 15  But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Mike Gagne]

Great addition rick!

Yes, the second death, the lake of fire. That brings it full circle in my humble opinion. To sin a sin to death is to become subject to the second death which we know those who overcome will have no part in. In my opinion, this all harmonizes nicely together; However, I am totally open to more input but I think you added some great food for thought rick.

As you pointed out, its not possible for the elect to be deceived or end up in the lake of fire ("sin a sin that leads to death") but you have to remember that we ourselves do not know who the elect are so from our perspective all these admonishments must be taken seriously

God bless,
Alex

its not possible for the elect to end up in the lake of fire!  I guess they won't be that elect if their still as carnal as hell , lol  Alex ya better go back and read the lake of fire series, I don't think that's what LRay teaches!!!  But if you are the elect it probably gets pretty hot some times!! In Christ Mike

[lilitalienboi16]

Great addition rick!

Yes, the second death, the lake of fire. That brings it full circle in my humble opinion. To sin a sin to death is to become subject to the second death which we know those who overcome will have no part in. In my opinion, this all harmonizes nicely together; However, I am totally open to more input but I think you added some great food for thought rick.

As you pointed out, its not possible for the elect to be deceived or end up in the lake of fire ("sin a sin that leads to death") but you have to remember that we ourselves do not know who the elect are so from our perspective all these admonishments must be taken seriously

God bless,
Alex

its not possible for the elect to end up in the lake of fire!  I guess they won't be that elect if their still as carnal as hell , lol  Alex ya better go back and read the lake of fire series, I don't think that's what LRay teaches!!!  But if you are the elect it probably gets pretty hot some times!! In Christ Mike

If for some reason I have overstepped my bounds then I believe the moderators would be kind enough to inform me. If I contradicted anything ray said or the scriptures then the mods are here to give the warning. Perhaps it is you, mike, who should return to the series and read again. You have offered no witnesses to your claims and nothing from ray. What I said does not contradict what the scriptures say. The elect will not have take part in the lake of fire which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The elect are those who overcome.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcomethwill I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Luke 13:23-24 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

They will not be hurt by the second death.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall NOT be hurt of the second death.

The elect will have already been judged by the time the world is judged at the great white throne of judgement where the lake of fire will consume them and the elect will be apart of this process in judging the world and ruling with Christ.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In Christ,
Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

Okay I believe these Scripture are additional witnesses, that show that the believers are to help one another if we see somebody needs help in understanding.

James 5:19  My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20  let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Gal 6:1  Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

This makes it clear that we should help another brother/believer who we think is being drawn astray into falsehood. This is the same thing that the Scripture in 1 John is speaking of, I will put my comments in brackets.

1John 5:16  If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin (an error/sin, but not so grave as to have lead them totally astray yet, so...) which does not lead to (spiritual) death (in this lifetime), he will ask (pray to God and if it's according to His will), and He will give him life (return that one to a right understanding) for those who commit sin not leading to (spiritual) death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Now this is speaking of a "brother," or somebody that believes these truth... but are all brothers/believers elect? What I mean is does everybody that starts out and shares this understanding of the truth go on to be faithful to the end and are actually an elect? What about the wheat and the tare? They go all the way to the end among the elect (and even appear to be elect) before they are separated (Matt 13). Now there is also Scripture that speaks of somebody who is "enlightened," yet do "fall away" and that cannot be brought back to the truth in this lifetime, or as it's put at the end of 1John 5:16 "...there is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that."

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
v. 6  if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Now this seems to be speaking of those that do receive and even embrace this truth, but do not continue in it for one reason or another... makes me think of the parable of the sower and the seed.

Luke 8:11  "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
v. 12  Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
v. 13  But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
v. 14  Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
v. 15  But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Very good addition kat as well. I think your post and rick's reminder of the second death really brought everything together for me.

God bless,
Alex

[rick]

I personally don't see any important's of worrying about anything in this life. The creation is not responsible for its self in any way, one has no say or control over their own life. If anyone feels differently and thinks they can control their life, then they have denied the very sovereignty of God, who they say they believe in.

If we have spiritual understanding, if we do anything that is honorable or that is good or that is right in God's sight it is only by the grace of God we are able to do these things. All good things come from God and from God only. All honor and praise belong to our creator we call God who is our heavenly Father.

There is not a person alive or that ever lived or ever will live that would not commit that sin which leads to death, we know this because scripture tells us this, when it says.


As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11  There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;

Rom 3:12  They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is non that doeth good, no, not, so much as one.
         
Rom 3:15  Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17  And the way of peace have they not known:


It is Gods choice, it is the council of God and all His declaration that will come to pass in each and everyone's life.

What are His plans for your life and for my life ?  If one commits the sin that leads to death, it must be understood that they made the only choice possible at that precise moment in time where thousands of circumstances caused that one to choose death over life which God is the cause of all things in heaven and earth.

No one can commit suicide until God says so, no one can do anything on their own, man does not direct his own footsteps , and all footsteps lead us to do the things we do.

If one believes in God then one has to believe in the complete sovereignty of God, or the truth is not in that one. And we know that we worship God in spirit and in truth. 

   

[Mike Gagne]

Well Alex read away! ...Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? (Jeremiah‬ 23‬:29‬ KJV)...And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God. (Zechariah‬ 13‬:9‬ KJV).....That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter‬ 1‬:7‬ KJV)....Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (1 Peter‬ 4‬:12‬ KJV)... Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!...Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians‬ 3‬:13-15‬ KJV)... Now this will take some spiritual discernment, to know which lake of fire you are in or going to be in!! But the natural man receives not the things of the spirit for they are foolishness to him,neither can he know , because they are spiritually discerned....     In Christ Mike

[Mike Gagne]

P.S  alex , Jesus is the lake of fire, are God is a consuming FIRE... In Christ Mike

[lilitalienboi16]

Well Alex read away! ...Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? (Jeremiah‬ 23‬:29‬ KJV)...And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God. (Zechariah‬ 13‬:9‬ KJV).....That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter‬ 1‬:7‬ KJV)....Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (1 Peter‬ 4‬:12‬ KJV)... Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!...Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians‬ 3‬:13-15‬ KJV)... Now this will take some spiritual discernment, to know which lake of fire you are in or going to be in!! But the natural man receives not the things of the spirit for they are foolishness to him,neither can he know , because they are spiritually discerned....     In Christ Mike

For the sake of brevity I've edited my original post.

Mike,

I do not disagree with any of the verses of scripture you shared and I don't think that the elect will be hurt by the second death which is the lake of fire as scripture says.

Rays paper on gehena (Link: http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm) and what revelation states leads me to believe that the elect, the house of God, the saints, and the chosen, undergo Gehenna fire right now, voluntarily, because they desire to become more and more like Christ. The rest of the world, and infact, those who do not overcome, will end up in what is termed the "lake of fire." The fire that tries the house of God in gehenna fire and the fire that is used upon the world in the lake is the same fire. For some, the lake of fire will be a rough time of judging, such as hitler, for others, perhaps the chosen who did not overcome, they may receive "few stripes" as is written. Either way, I believe Christ taught the judgement upon the house of God "Gehenna fire" and not "the lake of fire" for a reason. The distinction was made because they are not identical though their purpose is the same, to save mankind. Another important distinction is that the lake of fire will also be not just Christ but the elect as well. They will bring judgement upon the earth with Christ during His reign to teach the world righteousness.

I'm open to discussion.

[rick]

Hi Alex,

To become subjected to the second death is to suggest one was at one time not subjected to the second death, One is either subjected to the second death or they are not subjected to the second death.

Everyone will go through the lake of fire either now before the resurrection or after the resurrection, no one will escape the lake of fire whether they are the elect or not.

Not all will end up in the second death such as God's elect but all will end up being made in the image of God and God will be everyone's God and Father because God will be all in all.

John the Baptist said,  He must increase and I must decrease, the measure in which one believes in the sovereignty of God is equal to the measure they have decrease to self. All this is of God who wills and does all His pleasures in us.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Alex,

To become subjected to the second death is to suggest one was at one time not subjected to the second death, One is either subjected to the second death or they are not subjected to the second death.

Everyone will go through the lake of fire either now before the resurrection or after the resurrection, no one will escape the lake of fire whether they are the elect or not.

Not all will end up in the second death such as God's elect but all will end up being made in the image of God and God will be everyone's God and Father because God will be all in all.

John the Baptist said,  He must increase and I must decrease, the measure in which one believes in the sovereignty of God is equal to the measure they have decrease to self. All this is of God who wills and does all His pleasures in us.

Hi Rick,

Thanks for your contribution. I do agree that everyone is salted by fire and the fire tries every man's work. That there is no two separate fires. I guess my only difference of opinion here is that the elect will not be (or are not) judged in the lake but are rather judged in Gehenna. At least... that's what I thought all of ray's paper on Gehenna was about. I do agree though that it is the same fire just that its given a different name while it is happening to us in this lifetime as opposed to at the great white throne of judgement after the Resurrection of the dead.

Perhaps my use of the word "subjected" was not the best.

Is there a piece in ray's lake of fire series where he calls the judgement upon the house of God the "lake of fire?" Because he seems to attribute this judgement that has began now to "Gehenna" but I could be wrong.

Alex

[Ian 155]

What about this

One is born naturally OK,  into this place... this person is an "automatic" sinner 

During the course of his/her days,this particular person gets handed over into Satans hands for the purpose of destroying all carnality (logic reasoning) Flesh

(now I know some may say this process is reserved for folks that sleep with their mother and queers and stuff like that but really, looking a Job and other characters that represent things we go thru they were not fornicators in the Physical sense they were however spiritual fornicators and idolised their "achievements")

During this phase you loose everything and eventually become accustom to the process happening, it then becomes a distant memory this is like unto death,Job describes this process pretty well as does Jesus (now before anyone screams at me... Im not saying he had to be purged of sin) He had to Die though, and is our (physical)example.

The death of Jesus represents our "spiritual" death either in this life for some or in the next for most.

Now those that are dead to this world and the concerns thereof, including sin those who take every thought captive, those who shun evil those who walk in his light all the time,those who no longer live to appease the flesh,these are who I would call reborn sons of God "this is my son with whom I am well pleased..."

Since we understand one cannot assume they are elect, ok I know Ray did speak on "knowing" referring to paul's statement "now I know there awaits for me a crown..." this seems pretty straightforward but then we read in revelation and john talks about these same crowns the elders had and the elders had to cast their crowns down,in his presence.

So it is I have often grasped a spiritual truth and run with it on one level then tried to apply it to everything and have heard the words "who is this that darkens my council"

This to me is a sin that does not lead to (spiritual)death as instruction is coming from on high which leads to repentance ,forgiveness and a higher level of understanding don't forget the humbling part

To die to this world is pretty awesome its our carnality that perverts everything

[Kat]

Now alex this one you really have to understand that every mans work, means every mans work!!!

Well Mike I believe your indication is that the elect must be judged in the Lake of fire if/because 'every' man's work is to be judged there. Well there are Scripture that state there will be a 'separation' at Christ's coming/return, where He will bring a few into the kingdom as spiritual beings that serve with Him in His reign over the world for the next age.

Mat 25:33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41  "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (eonian, CLV; age-abiding, Rotherham) fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

It's every or all of the rest of the people "great and small" that go to the Lake of fire, because the elect are now part of the kingdom ruling/judging with Christ.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
v. 12  and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
v. 13  and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
v. 14  and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this is the second death;
v. 15  and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

So as you can see by this Scripture that "every" is a relative term for those that are still physical/goats. All do have to be judged and the elect have already been during their physical lifetime, as some of the Scripture you posted indicate, that was there 'second death' in fire, but not the lake of fire.

P.S  alex , Jesus is the lake of fire, are God is a consuming FIRE... In Christ Mike

Mike, Yes of course Jesus is the Lake of fire, but the elect will have joined with Him and they will be sons of God and Christ will do the judging through them "or know ye not that, the saints, shall judge the world?" (1Cor 6:2). Here is where Ray expressly states that the elect are 'the' lake of fire with Christ.

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html --------------------------

"...they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).

Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!

THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!

The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ's divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).

And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.

"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"

And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

To add to what Kat said, in ray's paper on Gehenna he states this:

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm

Gehenna fire is first and foremost for Christ's disciples (the Elect), and is first taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount to His disciples. It is therefore not literal fire, nor is it everlasting fire. "Gehenna fire" (Matt. 18:9 is also called "eonian [NOT 'everlasting'] fire" in Matt. 18:8, and also in Matt. 25:41 where this eonian fire prepared for the devil and his ministers will be judged in the resurrection to Judgment in "The Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15 & 21:. The Gehenna fire, eonian fire, lake of fire, are all the Judgment of God. These fires are all the same ONE fire that come from the same ONE God, and "Our [One] God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

and..

Notice how Paul's statement is in perfect agreement with that of Jesus: "And if your right eye offend you, [you] pluck it out... And if your right hand offend you, [you] cut it off..." (Matt. 5:29-30).

Isn't that amazing? That's how Jesus Judges US. He helps us judge OURSELVES! It is voluntary. But if we do not volunteer to judge ourselves, guess what? "...for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish [voluntarily] and not that your whole body should be cast [Gk: ballo-'throw violently or intensely' against your will] into Gehenna [fire]" (Ver. 30)

"For if we would judge ourselves we should not be judged... we should not be condemned with the world" (I Cor. 11:31-32).


No man's physical eyes has ever lusted after anything. All lust comes from the heart, the carnal mind, and that part of the carnal mind must be "plucked out," or "cut off." But you must be the one who does the plucking and cutting or God will intervene and "cast your whole body into Gehenna fire" in a later Judgment where this spiritual fire is called "The Lake of Fire."

We can either volunteer to stop sinning now, in this life, or God will volunteer us to stop sinning later, in the resurrection to Judgment. Yes, of course, it will be God in us regardless of which Judgment we find ourselves.

Now we learn something very specific from Christ's statements regarding Gehenna fire in this Sermon on the Mount, but we must look very closely to see this truth.

One of the ways that Jesus Judges His disciples is through spiritual "Gehenna fire." If one doesn't "pluck out an eye" or "cut off a hand," the result will be that "your whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Matt. 5:30). Read it carefully now: By not plucking out one's eye or cutting off one's hand, the result is that one's whole body is cast into Gehenna fire. What then does plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand represent, but the fact that only part of one's body at a time is being destroyed in Gehenna fire. We can either have the different parts of our carnal mind burned by this spiritual Gehenna fire, and reign with Christ, or we can have our whole body burned by this Gehenna fire and miss out on reigning with Christ.

This harmonizes perfectly with what Kat said about those not found written on the scroll of life/book of life. They end up in the lake of fire. Those who overcome (The elect) are not hurt by it, they cannot be hurt by it, because THEY ARE the lake of fire and they were judged already in Gehenna which contains the same fire that they now have become.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall NOT be hurt of the second death.

because again... "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (I Cor. 11:31)

In Christ,
Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Ian,

I found this in matthew about gehenna fire that matches up nicely with some of the verses kat shared and what ray said.

1Jn 5:15 And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him."
1Jn 5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that."
1Jn 5:17 All injustice is sin, and there is a sin not to death."

James 5:19  My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20  let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell[lit. Gehenna].

Ray's words:
No man's physical eyes has ever lusted after anything. All lust comes from the heart, the carnal mind, and that part of the carnal mind must be "plucked out," or "cut off." But you must be the one who does the plucking and cutting or God will intervene and "cast your whole body into Gehenna fire" in a later Judgment where this spiritual fire is called "The Lake of Fire."

We can either volunteer to stop sinning now, in this life, or God will volunteer us to stop sinning later, in the resurrection to Judgment. Yes, of course, it will be God in us regardless of which Judgment we find ourselves.
-----------------------------------------------

Seems all these above things are very closely related.

Just more food for thought.

Alex

[Kat]

I personally don't see any important's of worrying about anything in this life. The creation is not responsible for its self in any way, one has no say or control over their own life. If anyone feels differently and thinks they can control their life, then they have denied the very sovereignty of God, who they say they believe in.

If we have spiritual understanding, if we do anything that is honorable or that is good or that is right in God's sight it is only by the grace of God we are able to do these things. All good things come from God and from God only. All honor and praise belong to our creator we call God who is our heavenly Father.

Rick, I can understand where you are coming from about the sovereignty of God, no we should not sorry, but you sound like we have absolutely no involvement in what's going on at all. We are not just spectators and do not sit back and wait on God to tell us what to do or we will never do anything. I do not believe we actually audibly hear God, and certainly when we do bear fruit it is of the Spirit, but the Spirit of God is working in our own mind to motivate us and bring us to Him.

Luke 17:21  nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

If we have the Spirit indwelling God is teaching US how to serve and obey Him, and that is by Him changing the way WE think and do things, making US into a "new man/woman."

Eph 4:24  And you should put on the new man, who according to God was created in righteousness and true holiness.

God is working in and through the elect for their benefit, for the chosen few He is teaching/preparing them to think and understand His will and THEY will do good works by the Spirit "in them," that is the process, that is how the elect learn by 'doing' the good works.

1Tim 6:11  But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
v. 12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

1Ti 6:17  Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy.
v. 18  Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share,
v. 19  storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

There is not a person alive or that ever lived or ever will live that would not commit that sin which leads to death, we know this because scripture tells us this, when it says.

1John 5:16  If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that

Now about this Scripture from the op, understand that particular Scripture is speaking of a "brother" or somebody that believers these truths, not everybody in the world. Now what I think that may be confusing is that people think that anybody called a "brother" is an elect... there is no way of knowing that. There are many that hear these truths and seem to embrace them, yet do not continue. There no way to say what happens with most that have come through here, but I do know of some that have gone on to a different understanding.

Mat 7:14  Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
v. 15  "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

I already mentioned the parable of the sower and the seed and how it indicates that most that accept these truths do not continue in them. I believe that is what this Scripture is speaking of, those who are being drawn away and deceived. Now it is true that the very elect will not be deceived. But it is mentioned in Scripture and who is to say if God may use that very process of somebody being swayed by deception, then being pulled back by another brother concerned for them, to teach them how subtle deception can be.

James 5:19  My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
v. 20  let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Just giving you something to think about here.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

I personally don't see any important's of worrying about anything in this life. The creation is not responsible for its self in any way, one has no say or control over their own life. If anyone feels differently and thinks they can control their life, then they have denied the very sovereignty of God, who they say they believe in.

If we have spiritual understanding, if we do anything that is honorable or that is good or that is right in God's sight it is only by the grace of God we are able to do these things. All good things come from God and from God only. All honor and praise belong to our creator we call God who is our heavenly Father.

but the Spirit of God is working in our own mind to motivate us and bring us to Him.

Hi Kat,

God has complete sovereignty over all things, there is no getting around that fact. Whatever one is doing is a direct result of God's intentions. No one gets to be a spectator, everyone is an active participant in Gods plan.

If we had free will then we could  be a spectator but our will is subjected to Gods will and what God wills in our life, will come to pass.

Everything we do has been planed down to the smallest of detail and not one detail can be eluded.
 

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.