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Author Topic: Judgement and repentance vs. purification  (Read 1757 times)

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Farlsborough

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Judgement and repentance vs. purification
« on: November 27, 2014, 09:03:44 AM »

So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Ray refers to people being "burnt clean" (i.e. purified) - Scripture seems to indicate that this something for believers, doesn't it? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two?
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Rick

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Re: Judgement and repentance vs. purification
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 12:21:49 PM »

Without Christ sacrifice on the cross, no one could be saved . Are their two different lakes of fire  taking place,one now and the other taking place at a later time?

Or is it one continuous lake of fire that believers or Godís elect go through now and all others enter in at a latter period ?

When we go back to the creation of man, God said let us be making man in our image, so the lake of fire to me started then and will continue burning until the last person emerges from the lake of fire.


When you say ( And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, ) But my understanding is, Jesus is God, Jesus is the lake of fire. When Christ accomplishes all things then Christ will hand over the keys to the kingdom to God the Father and God the Father will be all in all.


The lake of fire is no walk in the park but I donít see it as punishment so much as I do it being Godís way of  transforming all from physical to spiritual.

When everyone comes forth from the lake of fire they will be in the image of God which was Godís purpose from the beginning. 
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To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

Kat

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Re: Judgement and repentance vs. purification
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 01:45:22 PM »


Hi Farlsborough,

All those in the resurrection of the dead, everybody accept the elect who are in the Book of Life - Christ Jesus, are judged in the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The only time the Lake of fire is mentioned is in Revelation concerning the next age, a 'lake' that's a body of water, the lake of fire is 'like' that in that it consist of the Body of Christ. It will be the elect, By the Holy Spirit of Christ indwelling them in great power and glory that will see to it that the world lives in peace and they will uphold God government. Now consider for a moment that there will be those physically raised that are quite capable of serving in that government physically as well, all the patriarchs and prophets and those who died in faith listed in Hebrews 11. Just think of what they (and probably many more not mentioned in Scripture) can bring in serving in the government, under the watchful eye of Christ/elect. Yes they must be taught the gospel, but I think the will readily accept it and quickly understand.

How will all the vast numbers raised back to physical life be purged and cleansed, well it's a process that may takes years and many many for some. There is no simple answer, that age will be as intricate and complex as this world is and the judgment can greatly vary as to what the correction of a particular person is, but there will be an entire age to deal with them.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1971.0.html ------------

I really appreciate your thorough presentation concerning the Lake of Fire.   However, I would like to know the difference between those written in the Lambs book of Life and those who will enter the Lake of Fire.  Isnt it unfair to those who enter the Lake of Fire if "All" are saved by the blood of Christ (which I do believe) .  It seems that they will still suffer for a while for never having the privilege to hear the gospel while the church wont have to suffer.  Am I wrong?
Thanks
Shane

Dear Shane:
No, God is not "unfair."  You are still looking at the lake of fire as some kind of a dungeon of torture in real fire. It is JUDGMENT, not solely punishment. And Jesus plainly has told us that it is according to the magnitude of one's crimes. "Many stripes versus few stripes."
 
We too go through the fire of God's spiritual judgment:  Judgment is upon the house of God NOW (I Pet. 4:17 and Heb. 12:29).  It isn't pleasant, but it is not total torture either.  There are two aspects of Judgment:  [1] We must be purged of our old carnal sinful attitudes, and [2] we must then grow spiritually by godly living and produce spiritual fruit (Gal. 5:22-25).
 
The Church only partially sees the need for these in those called in this life, but is totally blind to the fact that Judgment produces the same thing in the Resurrection to Judgment.  They think that "grace" is merely a noun that does it all for us rather than grace being a verb that does it all  IN us and THROUGH us (by the Spirit of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross). God is ABLE to make us holy and righteous through His work in us and He is likewise able to do the same for the rest of humanity in Judgment.  We blaspheme if we suggest that God either does not want to save humanity or that He is unable.

God be with you,
Ray
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Judgement and repentance vs. purification
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2014, 02:31:33 PM »

So, "when God's judgements are on the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." However, we shall certainly only be saved through Christ (entering through the door, calling on His name and so on). It is only Christ who can redeem us.

So then, how are we to see the lake of fire? Ray refers to people being "burnt clean" (i.e. purified) - Scripture seems to indicate that this something for believers, doesn't it? And if God's "fire" is enough to purify someone to perfection, they are not in fact being saved through Christ, are they?

This would lead me to think that the lake of fire is more about the combination of the consequences of sin and God's judgement on evil doers (i.e. all) being brought to bear on someone, such that they then do ultimately accept Christ's sacrifice. But this does seem different to being "burnt clean", which is more of a purgatorial process.

Does anyone see what's confusing me here... the mechanism of salvation for all... being driven to repentance, or being (painfully) "refined"? Or is it a combination of the two?

Farlsborough,

The lake of fire is Jesus Christ and the elect of God.

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire."

1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Isaiah 33:14-15 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1 Corinthians 6:2 "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



The purpose of judgement and fire is to set right and save:

1 Corinthians 3:13-16 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day [JUDGEMENT DAY] shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Genesis 18:25 "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

To judge is to SET RIGHT.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 03:02:17 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Judgement and repentance vs. purification
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2014, 12:26:20 AM »

I "see" the Lake of Fire firstly NOT as a LAKE, and NOT as Fire.  Don't ask me what things will be like after resurrection.  I don't know, and neither does anybody else.  Whatever it is, it will be for many like a lake of fire without BEING a lake, or being fire.     

What, in YOUR life, has caused you to learn righteousness?  Has it all been through "punishment"?  Force?  Fear?  Heat?  Has ANY of that kind of thing helped?

Did Love, peace, joy, patience, long-suffering, etc have no part in it? 

The Lake of Fire is in the PRESENCE of the LAMB.  You know--the One who was slain.  Put it all together. 

Jas 1:12  Blessed is the man who endureth temptations; so that when he is proved he may receive a crown of life, which God hath promised to them that love him.

That's what Jesus did.  That's what we'll all do.  He received the crown of life.  We'll all receive a crown of life, when our "tests/temptations" result in us being "proved".  In other words--when we have learned righteousness.  That's the purpose of the Lake of Fire and every other "fire" and "judgment".  There are dozens of ways to put it, but it all boils down to the same thing. 

 

   
 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

indianabob

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Re: Judgement and repentance vs. purification
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2014, 02:33:03 AM »

Great comment Dave,
Lots of good comments from many folks.
What it all boils down to is spiritual training.
When I was in the military service the purpose of our basic training was Unit Cohesiveness. In order to be able to accomplish the tasks given to the military unit we had to act as ONE.
The first step in the military is to break down individual thinking and convince the soldiers to act with confidence in the commands of those in charge who had the responsibility to carry out orders from the top.

Part of our training involved running a long course of obstacles and completing the course in the allotted time or doing it over again until we were successful. They didn't call it a punishment course or even a correction of poor habits course, rather it was called a CONFIDENCE course. It taught us that we were capable so long as we worked together and followed orders from the top. We learned to do our tasks the "military way".

In similar manner this life of OVERCOMING is to teach us to have confidence in our Lord and Master and in His having our best interest at heart always.

Make no mistake it can be scary and intimidating when we are asked, compelled or led to accomplish tasks that we have not believed we were capable of doing; and we aren't....apart from God.
But with God ALL things are possible.

So if I may be so bold to say stop worrying, if you were meant to be in the company of the Lord Jesus you shall be there. In my own humble opinion Jesus has not said anywhere in scripture, " if you don't like what I am asking you to do you can just quit....

No that ain't going to happen my friend. You will finish the course set before you whether you think so at this time or not. The Lord has said it plainly; John 6:39

Ö38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."Ö

So whether that applies to the first Resurrection or the next is not something we can know, but we can know that God's will shall be accomplished in us. Of that we may be sure.

Indiana Bob
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Farlsborough

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Re: Judgement and repentance vs. purification
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2014, 01:52:56 PM »

As ever, thanks for the thoughts folks!

Just for clarification, this is not so much concern for myself. I have faith that God will deal with me with perfect justice. It is to the accusation/objection against UR: "if unbelieving people have their sin burnt out of them/are refined in the next age, they are not being saved by Jesus's righteousness alone."

I think the problem with this way of thinking is limiting God (I.e. "God CANNOT act in any other way than a binary - saved through Christ/not saved"), and also a slightly weird one-upmanship about sin that I've noticed amongst the reformed traditions... A standard response when they have no good scriptural basis for eternal torment is "...well I take sin seriously". A bit like Mormons who just KNOW Mormonism is true...!
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