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John or the dragon? Upon the sand or upon the ground?
Mariano:
Hello everybody,
Did you know there are two variants in Revelation 13:1, the one saying “I stood upon the sand of the sea” and the other saying “he stood upon the sand of the sea”, where the “he” mentioned is the dragon of Revelation 12? Furthermore, not few manuscripts with the later variant have that phrase as Revelation 12:18…
Here are the English versions included in Biblegateway.com which follow the two variants:
John stands upon the sand of the sea: KJ21, AMP, Darby, GNV, Phillips, JUB, KJV, AKJV, MEV, NKJV, NLV, WEB, WE, YLT
The dragon stands upon the sand of the sea: ASV, CEB, CJB, CEV, DLNT, DRA, ERV, ESV, ESVUK, EXB, GW, GNT, HCSB, ISV, LEB, TLB, MSG, NOG, NABRE, NASB, NCV, NET, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLT, NRSV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, OJB, RSV, RSVCE, Voice, WYC
Also, in Jesus parable of the two house builders, we have “sand” mentioned in Matthew 7:26 and “earth”/“arable land”/”ground” (γῆ) in Luke 6:49. Furthermore, in both cases the faulty house is built nearby the river (ποταμός) and not the sea…
Any comment on this?
John from Kentucky:
I do not see the significance of this matter.
The beast was coming up out of the sea and thus came to stand on the sand of the sea shore.
John was already there on the sand looking behind himself.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Mariano on December 02, 2014, 12:34:40 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on December 02, 2014, 12:29:30 PM ---
I do not see the significance of this matter.
The beast was coming up out of the sea and thus came to stand on the sand of the sea shore.
John was already there on the sand looking behind himself.
--- End quote ---
Definitely not the case, John. The two variants are exclusive to each other: it is John standing upon the sand of the sea or it is the dragon. Go to Biblegateway and check it out for yourself. Also, the two variants in Jesus parable of the two house builders suggest that it is irrelevant whether the faulty one was built on the sand or on the soil.
--- End quote ---
John makes a very valid point though. I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss him
Also to your original post, its not a stream in both cases. In matthew, the word for SAND has this as its definition:
G285
ἄμμος
ammos
am'-mos
Perhaps from G260; sand (as heaped on the beach): - sand.
A beach is where the sand meets the sea.
Definition of beach according to google:
beach
bēCH/Submit
noun
1.
a pebbly or sandy shore, especially by the ocean between high- and low-water marks.
In Christ,
Alex
Kat:
--- Quote from: Mariano on December 02, 2014, 11:47:52 AM ---Did you know there are two variants in Revelation 13:1, the one saying “I stood upon the sand of the sea” and the other saying “he stood upon the sand of the sea”, where the “he” mentioned is the dragon of Revelation 12? Furthermore, not few manuscripts with the later variant have that phrase as Revelation 12:18…
--- End quote ---
Hi Mariano,
All of the different translations you mention of who it was speaking of in the verse are of little value, we know that the translators did not understand what they translating. But Ray did go into this very thing about John standing upon the sand of the sea in the LoF article no. 13.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -------------------
But how can I say that this beast out of the sea is something that already existed at the time of John’s writing? Was he not to write about "…things which must shortly COME TO PASS…"? (Rev. 1:1). Is this not then making all that John sees, things that are all in the future from the time of his vision? No. Everything in this book is part of Christ’s testimony, "which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME." It is needful that we read several verses now to catch the significance of, from what perspective it was that John wrote this prophecy:
"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ [‘which IS, WAS, and WILL BE’].
I was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND ME a great voice, as of a trumpet [a trumpet is a symbol for a POWERFUL MESSAGE],
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What you see, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are [they ALREADY existed at the time that John writes about them] in Asia…
And I TURNED to see the voice that spoke with me. And BEING TURNED, I saw seven golden candlesticks." (Rev. 1:9-12).
Ah yes, John heard this trumpet (or message) "behind him" and therefore, had to TURN BACK in order to see, hear, and understand the message! And so John writes about the things he sees "BEHIND" him (1:10), and "…things which must be HEREAFTER."
And so it is in this context that John said: "I stood upon the sand of the sea…" Did you not notice what we just read concerning John and ourselves? Let’s read it again:
"I John, who ALSO am YOUR BROTHER, and COMPANION IN TRIBULATION [persecution], AND IN THE KINGDOM AND PATIENCE [endurance] of Jesus Christ…" (Rev. 1:9).
The very elect are all "companions and brothers" in our quest for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Where Jesus walked, WE WILL WALK. Where John walked, WE WILL WALK. Where John stood, we all have stood or will yet stand.
--------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kat:
Just because they are older manuscripts does not always mean they are accurate. Now Ray had studied these things in dept and presented them in his articles, either you agree with what he said are you don't, that's your business. We don't even think that you have to agree with what Ray taught, but whether Ray was right or not is certainly not something that we will take up here on the forum. There is plenty we can agree on to discuss.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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