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Author Topic: The second death in the Targumim  (Read 1419 times)

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Mariano

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The second death in the Targumim
« on: December 05, 2014, 01:16:11 PM »

Hello everybody,

If you have read my introducing message to the forum, you may remember I studied Modern Hebrew for some seven years (in fact, this is the only language I've studied formally). Now, Modern Hebrew is not like biblical Hebrew; it is more like a Slavic language (Yiddish) with a Semitic ---i. e., Hebrew and Aramaic--- lexicon. In fact, believe it or not, when all is said and done, Arabic is closer to biblical Hebrew than Modern Hebrew… Notwithstanding, the study of Modern Hebrew did opened the gates for me to study biblical Hebrew and Aramaic (both the biblical and the Syriac kind). For me, this has been of God (anyway, as everything is of Him).

Now, what I wanted to point out here is that I have found, a few years ago, that both Jesus and the apostles have made many quotations and allusions to the Aramaic translations/exegesis of the OT books known as the Targumim (plural for Targum, which means “translation”).

One of these allusions has to do with the expression “second death”, which is found in five or six passages in the Targums. Those passages are:


DEUTERONOMY

33:6. Let Reuben live in this world, nor die the second death which the wicked die in the world to come… (Pseudo-Jonathan)

33:6. Let Reuben live in life eternal, and not die the second death… (Onkelos)


PSALMS

49:11. For the wise will see the wicked, who die the second death; in Gehenna they will be judged…


ISAIAH

22:14. The prophet said, with mine ears I was hearing when this was decreed from before the Lord of Hosts: that this your iniquity shall not be forgiven you till you die the second death…  (Pseudo-Jonathan)

65:6. Behold, it is written before me: I will not give unto them prolongation in this life; but I will recompense unto them the wages for their sins, and deliver their bodies to the second death. (Pseudo-Jonathan)


There is also an occurrence in the book of Jeremiah, which I cannot find right now.

Now, with this in mind, go now to Revelation 20:14: “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS is the second death.”

In my view, the one above is a clarification made by Jesus Christ through John of an expression not strange at all to the readers/hearers of Revelation.

As you may grasp, I saw this finding as one of huge importance in order to understand God's plan in general and the book of Revelation in particular.

In due time, I will be submitting other findings related to the Targumims for you to consider with God's help.

Let all the glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ.


Mariano
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 01:55:25 PM by Mariano »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: The second death in the Targumim
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2014, 02:28:33 PM »

Hi Mariano,

What you share is interesting. My e-sword does not corroborate any of it though; However, I know that e-sword and translations such as the king james etc.. rely on a greek old testatement to translate and so if your versions shared are ones that translated directly from the Hebrew texts then it would make sense to see some variation. Now what I'm curious about is if the translations you shared of these verses, having the "second death" present in them, is this something every little jewish boy and girl knows or is this an added interpretation projected upon the Hebrew texts by the biases of christian translators who saw these concepts in these passages even though the language may not have permitted such interpretation?

When I check the greek of these passages there appears to be zero suggesting of such interpretation being possible. For example, in Isaiah:

Isa 22:14  And it was revealedH1540 in mine earsH241 by the LORDH3068 of hosts,H6635 SurelyH518 thisH2088 iniquityH5771 shall not be purgedH3722 from you tillH5704 ye die,H4191 saithH559 the LordH136 GODH3069 of hosts.H6635

The word used for "die" is mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: -  X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

However, John in reveleation uses a totally different word for "Death" which is attached to the "Second death" and he wrote the book in greek.

Again, I concede this is greek text that is used as the backdrop for English translation but why did the greeks who originally translated the text from hebrew make such gross errors to the point of what appears to be omitting entire words? I.e. to imply a "second" death would require a word that denotes "second" but all we find is a word that implies "to die."

In Christ,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Mariano

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Re: The second death in the Targumim
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2014, 03:18:43 PM »

Hi Alex,

I'm afraid you won't find anything of the subject at stake here in the Greek Septuagint or even in the Hebrew Masoretic Text of the OT. That's because what we're dealing here with is Aramaic, not Greek nor Hebrew.

If you or anybody else want to learn about Aramaic and its history throughout the biblical ages and beyond, I'll recommend the short and nice article “What is Aramaic?” from the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon Project (the URL of the website is http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/).

Also, for you to check out the English translations of the targumic passages I submitted above, I will address you to this website, which I'm confidant you will easily surf: Targumic Texts (URL: http://targum.info/targumic-texts/)

As for "every little Jewish boy and girl" knowing of this, I don't think so. In fact, Judaic people don't even have the OT as the highest authority, being this for them the Babylonian Talmud and maybe the Mishneh Torah by Maimonides. For them, there is a written Torah (our OT) and an oral Torah (the Jerusalemite and Babylonian Talmuds, though the latter is more complete and authoritative). For them, the OT is only for women and kids to be entertained with "pious stories"; but men attach all authority to the so called "sages" of the Talmud.

I hope this clarifies your doubts.

God bless.


Mariano
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:33:25 PM by Mariano »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: The second death in the Targumim
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2014, 03:34:46 PM »

Aramaic is not that important.

The OT quotes of Jesus and the Apostles come primarily from the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament.

There are a few chapters of Aramaic in the Hebrew OT, and only a few Aramaic words in the Greek New Testament.


I know you are new here and are easily offended.  It is not my intention to offend you.

But true understanding of the Scriptures does not come from an intellectual knowledge of languages.

True understanding comes only from the Spirit of God, as it is written, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord Almighty."
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: The second death in the Targumim
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2014, 04:04:16 PM »

Aramaic is not that important.

The OT quotes of Jesus and the Apostles come primarily from the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament.

There are a few chapters of Aramaic in the Hebrew OT, and only a few Aramaic words in the Greek New Testament.


I know you are new here and are easily offended.  It is not my intention to offend you.

But true understanding of the Scriptures does not come from an intellectual knowledge of languages.

True understanding comes only from the Spirit of God, as it is written, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord Almighty."

I agree with what John said. While the matter of translations may be interesting here, it is fraught with peril and not even necessary in this case to understand what the second death is or who it meant for. We have all the scriptural instruction we need to understand God's word but it takes God's spirit to see it and believe it.

The scriptures are not a matter of man's intellectual might (knowledge of languages).

I'll add this witness to John's.

1 Corinthians 2:10 "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."
1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

1 Corinthians 3:19 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."

God bless,
Alex



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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Extol

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Re: The second death in the Targumim
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2014, 04:59:44 PM »

Aramaic is not that important.

The OT quotes of Jesus and the Apostles come primarily from the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament.

There are a few chapters of Aramaic in the Hebrew OT, and only a few Aramaic words in the Greek New Testament.


I know you are new here and are easily offended.  It is not my intention to offend you.

But true understanding of the Scriptures does not come from an intellectual knowledge of languages.

True understanding comes only from the Spirit of God, as it is written, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord Almighty."

I agree with what John said. While the matter of translations may be interesting here, it is fraught with peril and not even necessary in this case to understand what the second death is or who it meant for. We have all the scriptural instruction we need to understand God's word but it takes God's spirit to see it and believe it.

The scriptures are not a matter of man's intellectual might (knowledge of languages).

I'll add this witness to John's.

1 Corinthians 2:10 "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."
1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

1 Corinthians 3:19 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."

God bless,
Alex

I wish I did understand Hebrew and Greek-- in another way I’m glad I don’t. You know why? Because if I understood Hebrew and Greek and was a scholar, then it’s like ‘Well the only way you can understand the Bible is if you’re a scholar. Nobody could be a roofer and know these things.’

--L. Ray Smith, Can A Sovereign God Change? May 2008

 8)
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: The second death in the Targumim
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2014, 04:46:04 PM »

FYI: Mariano asked to be removed from this forum.
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