> General Discussions
Resurrection of the dead in Matthew 27?
Gina:
Hi Addison,
Just a few thoughts. We know, from what Ray taught us, that the book of Revelation is a book of symbols.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here."
Luke 14
8 "When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him,
9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, 'Give your place to this man,' and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place.
10 "But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher'; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you.
11"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted [def. placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard].
Proverbs 25:7 it is better for him to say to you, "Come up here," than for him to humiliate you before his nobles.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
And since the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols that signify many things, do we think this is a literal voice, coming from literally up in the literal clouds?
And if they're literally INSIDE clouds, how can their enemies literally see them?
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,
Did the writer of Hebrews mean that they were literally surrounded by a literal great cloud of literal witnesses? Or does this cloud of witnesses signify something/someone else?
--- Quote --- Now I'm not saying they are whisked off somewhere, they are with Christ right there in the air/clouds above the earth, preparing to descend with Christ.
--- End quote ---
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,
Power of the air. There's an expression people used to use, maybe they still do in some situations where the atmosphere is different, like when they're in an exciting place: Oooooo! There's a charge in the air here tonight, isn't there?!
Or when some snotty, high-minded person enters a room:
Ooooo, feel that chill in air?
He's not literally talking about the literal "air" in Ephesians, so why would the "air" in Thessalonians be literal air?
The prince of the power of the air. Satan is not a literal prince, is he? And while he does have power given to him by God, he's not concerned with air conditioning.
When we talk about a person's personality, we say things like, Man, he is so positive! Or she is so negative. Or we'll get finished talking with someone and leave feeling like we've just had the life drained from us.... "God, they are such a drain! Blah, blah, blah, yap-yap-yap. I thought they'd never shut up.... just went on and on and on..."
Kinda like I'm doing now...
I'm almost positive all that stuff is symbols, and not literal.
But I could be wrong.
Kat:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on December 23, 2014, 08:59:32 PM ---Great addition Kat. Sure, I can see what you are saying to be entirely the case. Thanks for adding a few more pieces to the puzzle. I guess over all the point I was trying to make is still valid though. Is this how you understand it as well? Just trying to make sure I'm not the only one who is interpreting things this way: That Christ will establish His kingdom here on this earth and not that humanity will go up to Him in "heaven" (with the exception of what you just added in relation to the elect for that brief time).
--- End quote ---
Yes I do have that understanding of those saints being physically raised as well Alex.
Hi Gina,
--- Quote ---And since the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols that signify many things, do we think this is a literal voice, coming from literally up in the literal clouds?
And if they're literally INSIDE clouds, how can their enemies literally see them?
--- End quote ---
What makes the Scripture such a great mystery is because there is no pattern to the symbols, what a symbols is in one passage does not necessarily mean the same in another. Each symbol must be considered by the context.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here."
In this verse I showed, this is the actual and literal return of Christ, He is speaking to His elect and raising them from the dead and those alive undergo a miraculous change, this is literally them going from physical bodies to spiritual bodies... I believe their ascent up and off the earth is literal as well. They are entering the spiritual kingdom that cannot be seen by the physical eye, but they are no longer earth bound, so they go up and rally together with Christ, before they come back down to take total control on earth. And once the elect are raised I do think they will be able to literally hear Christ's voice.
More specifically in order for the elect to descend down to earth with Christ, they must have ascended up from it prior to this. In Rev 19:14 we see they "followed Him" as Christ is literally descending to earth. Also New Jerusalem - the elect are "coming down out of heaven" to be seen on the physical earth.
Rev 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Acts 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
I'm just trying to show that the return of Christ is a literal event that will happen and some how this most momentous event in the history of the world will be seen by every person on the earth.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
But Kat, come on, seriously... we were taught that this New Jerusalem is not a literal but a spiritual city made up of a spiritual body of believers whom Christ has elected (called out -- "come out of her my people!") to be in his spiritual army/government.
John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
I believe that Jesus did ascend into heaven and descended from heaven. And I believe he has a heavenly kingdom. And I believe His Father who is in heaven is near to us, so near that He is basically on our lips.... God is everywhere. Ray even said so. But some neither enter in themselves and prevent others from entering in this spiritual kingdom of the heavens.
The Psalmist wrote:
If I should ascend up to heaven (he means to become exalted, puffed up in some way shape or form), Thou art there! And if I should make my bed in sheol , lo! Thou art there! (Does he mean make his literal bed in the realm of the unknown/imperceptible? Call me wacky, but I think he means, become lost or destroy himself in some way shape or form. You've heard the expression: "Well, you made you bed, so lie in it!")
Jesus said, repent! For The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Literally at hand? As if flesh and blood could inherit it?
Jesus said that my words are spirit. And since they're spirit by the gospel accounts, I guess I was wrong to assume they're spirit in Revelation. So, Let me stay in the back of the bus and remain quiet for the duration of this thread. I'm content to do that.
:)
Kat:
Yes Gina, it is about the spiritual, the elect are the Body of Christ, the Temple that is being prepared - put together now in the heavens.
1Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
1Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
What do you think those mansions are that Christ mentions?
John 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
v. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Those mansions are a figure of speak of what the elect are, they are being prepared now and Christ will bring them to Himself, literally, when He returns.
Though the elect are most certainly of the body now, they are only given a earnest/guarantee/promise for now.
2Cor 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
v. 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2Cor 5:5 Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Now in this life we are being prepared, made ready to actually born into the kingdom and given glorious spiritual bodies. But for now it's only a little taste, just enough to get us prepared.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Cor 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him"—
I think about how Christ was after His resurrection, He appeared to them as a physical man, He took fish from them and ate it to prove this (Luke 24:41-43). Yet He could come and go completely unrestrained by the physical and He could appear where they could not recognize who He was (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:16). He was then using the attributes of His spiritual body, beyond the restrictions of the physical and I believe the elect will be like that when born into the kingdom.
How do you think the elect will rule the world if it can't even see them. I believe that Isaiah has many passages that speaks of the next age, like this one.
Isa 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction (those being jugded, corrected in the next age), yet shall not thy teachers be hidden anymore (this is speaking of the elect in the next age), but thine eyes shall see thy teachers;
v. 21 and thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it; when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
This age has it's purpose and is working according to what is necessary for that, and the next age will be for a different purpose and many things will be different and that is physical things as well as spiritual. The great majority of mankind will still be physical in the next age and will need to be dealt with physically by Christ and the elect. The next age will bring about changes that this world has never known before.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
I am in agreement with Kat on this matter. I see it the same way.
I was going to add some of the things Kat mentioned now but she beat me to it!
God bless,
Alex
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version