"of" or "in"?

[jojoross]

Yello all,

In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith OF Him"(Eph. 3:12).

"Even the righteousness OF God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe" (Rom. 3:22).

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:;16).

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given
to them that believe" (Gal. 3:22).


It looks like the kjv and some others put "OF" and the newer and more popular translations (niv, nabs, etc.) have "IN". I am trying to find the greek translations but not finding any luck. I mean these two words can change a truth here. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

God's peace,
Jordan

[Dennis Vogel]

I just heard an audio of Ray's that explains this (cannot remember which one).

Try searching the transcripts and you should be able to find the audio.

[lilitalienboi16]

Yello all,

In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith OF Him"(Eph. 3:12).

"Even the righteousness OF God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe" (Rom. 3:22).

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:;16).

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given
to them that believe" (Gal. 3:22).


It looks like the kjv and some others put "OF" and the newer and more popular translations (niv, nabs, etc.) have "IN". I am trying to find the greek translations but not finding any luck. I mean these two words can change a truth here. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

God's peace,
Jordan

Hi Jordan, It is most definitely the faith OF Jesus Christ which leads to being IN Jesus Christ. Here are some added witnesses on the matter, let me know if they help:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that ['faith'] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

God bless,
Alex

[Rene]

Hi Jordan,

In the "Why God Loves You" paper, Ray briefly discussed the "faith of" and not "faith in" Christ.  Using the KJV translation of Gal. 2:20, Ray inserted an explanation which is in BOLD below.

http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of [faith 'of,' not faith 'in' -- it is Christ's faith in us, not our faith in Him that saves us. It does not become "our faith" until God gives it to us. It is a gift.] the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

[lilitalienboi16]

Don't forget James!

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Faith is a gift!

[Dave in Tenn]

I have no definitive answer, but here's another passage to add to this.

Gal 2:20  I am crucified withG4957 Christ:G5547 neverthelessG1161 I live;G2198 yet notG3765 I,G1473 butG1161 ChristG5547 livethG2198 inG1722 me:G1698 andG1161 the life whichG3739 I nowG3568 liveG2198 inG1722 the fleshG4561 I liveG2198 byG1722 the faithG4102 of(G3588) theG3588 SonG5207 of God,G2316 who lovedG25 me,G3165 andG2532 gaveG3860 himselfG1438 forG5228 me.G1700


Strong's definition of G3588 may only help a grammarian. 

G3588
ὁ, ἡ, τό
ho  hē  to
ho, hay, to
The masculine, feminine (second) and neuter (third) forms, in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom): - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.


The scriptures YOU posted, however, don't use the word (at least I didn't find one that did)...but as the definition said, sometimes it is left out in idiomatic translation.

Try this one, the Apostolic Polyglot--as close to a 'word-for'word' translation as I have.

Eph 3:12  inG1722 whomG3739 we haveG2192 G3588 an open mannerG3954 andG2532 G3588 accessG4318 inG1722 relianceG4006 throughG1223 theG3588 beliefG4102 of his.G1473

Rom 3:22  even righteousnessG1343 G1161 of GodG2316 throughG1223 beliefG4102 of JesusG* Christ,G5547 untoG1519 allG3956 andG2532 forG1909 allG3956 the onesG3588 trusting;G4100 [3notG3756 1forG1063 2there is]G1510.2.3 a difference;G1293
Rom 3:23  for allG3956 G1063 sinnedG264 andG2532 lackG5302 theG3588 gloryG1391 G3588 of God;G2316

Gal 2:16  and knowingG1492 G1161 thatG3754 [2is notG3756 3justifiedG1344 1man]G444 fromG1537 worksG2041 of law,G3551 butG1437 G3361 throughG1223 beliefG4102 of JesusG* Christ,G5547 andG2532 weG1473 [2inG1519 3ChristG5547 4JesusG* 1trusted],G4100 thatG2443 we should be justifiedG1344 ofG1537 beliefG4102 of Christ,G5547 andG2532 notG3756 byG1537 worksG2041 of law;G3551 forG1360 notG3756 shall [3be justifiedG1344 4byG1537 5worksG2041 6of lawG3551 1anyG3956 2flesh].G4561

Gal 3:22  ButG235 [3consignedG4788 1theG3588 2scripture]G1124 the wholeG3588 G3956 underG5259 sin,G266 thatG2443 theG3588 promiseG1860 ofG1537 beliefG4102 of JesusG* ChristG5547 should be givenG1325 to the onesG3588 trusting.G4100

And lastly, the one I put forward:

Gal 2:20  [2ChristG5547 1I have been crucified with],G4957 but I live,G2198 G1161 no longerG3765 I,G1473 [3livesG2198 1butG1161 4inG1722 5meG1473 2Christ];G5547 but that [2whichG3739 G1161 4nowG3568 3I 5liveG2198 6inG1722 1flesh],G4561 [2inG1722 3beliefG4102 1I live] --G2198 in the oneG3588 of theG3588 sonG5207 G3588 of God,G2316 of the oneG3588 lovingG25 me,G1473 andG2532 delivering himself upG3860 G1438 forG5228 me.G1473

Might help to put them in order too, at least within each epistle.

I know what I think (and have for quite a while) from all the above (and then some). 

You're right--it makes a difference in 'understanding'.  It is HIS FAITH that He gives to us.  I wasn't trained to think of Jesus as having 'faith'.  Wrong, paleface.   

[lurquer]

Dave, I love what you said.. And I remember hearing Ray explain that passage (or that rendering of it) in an audio a long while back, and how it was so profound to me. Yes, it was the faith OF Christ that is saving us!  (If it was really all OUR faith, then we did the work.. Our salvation was then OUR doing, not His).  At least that's how I saw it.

But like you (and probably everyone else here)--Before Ray--I wasn't taught that Jesus "had faith".  Wow.. Of COURSE He did!  Because He is indeed the "author and finisher of our faith"!  Deep stuff indeed.

But, I wonder...The negative of faith is doubt. Many times, for example, when I've heard the Stones' song, Sympathy for the Devil, and thought of that line, "I was around when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain"...Well, Did Jesus ever doubt?  Is doubt a necessary part of being human?  Is it always sin? If not, did He partake in that? Was his moment in the garden; His anguish, His drops of blood shed in agonizing prayer... was that doubt?

What do you all think?

Michael

[Gina]

Hi, Michael

Apart from that line "had his moment of of doubt," I like that song. 

I've always wondered what is it about that scene in the garden when Christ "begins to be sorrowful and depressed" that the writer of that song interpreted as doubt.  For me, it is this:  The writer of that song is writing as if Satan is speaking.  And Satan is what?  A liar.  Satan would have some believe that Jesus doubted because it serves to cause doubt in the hearer.  If Satan can cause people to believe that Jesus actually had a doubt, well, that makes Jesus out to be a sinner who gave into temptation.  When Jesus was tempted, He never sinned.  Doubt means to hesitate to believe; a feeling of uncertainty about the truth.  Do you think that Jesus fell to the temptation to doubt the truth of Who He was?  Well, if He did then we have a sinner for a savior, and I don't think we want to go there.

His Father made sure that He didn't give in to the temptation to doubt.

[Gina]

p.s.  In case the writer of the song was referring to the time when Jesus quoted the Psalm:  "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"  while on the cross, that was not a public display of doubt by Jesus.  There was a time when I thought that God actually did forsake Jesus, but I don't believe that anymore.  Jesus quoted a Psalm, for whatever reason, I don't know exactly why at this point in my walk but I'm confident it will make perfect sense one day.  And some have tried to explain those words away but not to my satisfaction because when they do, they unintentionally make Jesus out to be doubting -- which means he lacked belief.  So I don't pay any attention to their explanations.   And besides, right after He said, why have you forsaken me, He said, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit."  And that is proof that Jesus didn't give into the temptation to doubt.  It's really tempting to believe he had a moment of unbelief, I grant you that!  But I would caution you against that.  It serves no good purpose. 

[jojoross]

Thanks everyone for your input. Seriously helps me tremendously (always does  ).

Ever since I came to the knowledge that God TRULY is the Potter and I am the clay about almost a year ago (yes I keep track of the time...God works with us in time right?  ) I have been in a real battle. I am still trying to put myself as the king sitting on the throne in God's temple and not Jesus. BUT at the same time the peace OF God is really recenating in me due to the fact that God is creatING me in His image! AND not just me But all mankind in this age or the next...I mean how amazing is that?

Its crazy how much I ponder on these marvelous truths God is opening my eyes to see. Its hard to not have people your closes with not see it. But God will have them see one day. Ahhh who can be His counselor?! Again thanks for your words everybody. It TRULY is a blessing to this wretched man 

Gods peace,
Jordan

[Kat]

p.s.  In case the writer of the song was referring to the time when Jesus quoted the Psalm:  "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"  while on the cross, that was not a public display of doubt by Jesus.  There was a time when I thought that God actually did forsake Jesus, but I don't believe that anymore.  Jesus quoted a Psalm, for whatever reason, I don't know exactly why at this point in my walk but I'm confident it will make perfect sense one day.  And some have tried to explain those words away but not to my satisfaction because when they do, they unintentionally make Jesus out to be doubting -- which means he lacked belief.  So I don't pay any attention to their explanations.   And besides, right after He said, why have you forsaken me, He said, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit."  And that is proof that Jesus didn't give into the temptation to doubt.  It's really tempting to believe he had a moment of unbelief, I grant you that!  But I would caution you against that.  It serves no good purpose. 

Hi Gina, this is a interesting Scripture that has been misunderstood, because the church believed that Jesus was 'made sin' and therefore the Father could not look (turned His back) on Him as such - sin.

Habakkuk 1:13  You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness.

But Ray explained very well how Christ became a "sin offering" and certainly not sin in a 2 part Bible study. Links for anybody interested.

audio
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html

I do NOT believe Christ was expressing His doubt in any way, as you were saying, but rather His desire for all this horrible suffering to be brought to an end, which it was very quickly thereafter.

Another thing is just before Christ spoke those words "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" the Jews that were gathered there to watch/gloat at His crucifixion, had said...

Mat 27:41  Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said,
v. 42  "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him.

Christ knew these Jews knew what David had spoken in the Psalms and they also believed that passage to be speaking of the Messiah. So by His quoting that very Scripture in their hearing most clearly shows them right where it is recorded about HIM! That passage revealed He was that Messiah, and He was pointing that out them. He knew these were prophesied of Him, and fit with what was happening to Him at that very moment perfectly. It says that they "divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots (verse 18), the soldiers had just done that.

Should have left no doubt to them that passage was about Him, but it was just another record for US and another proof of who He was.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

Thanks Kat

[Gina]

Thank you for the links and the explanation, Kat.   I listened to it a long time ago and I was very grateful for that study Ray did.  I would encourage anyone to listen to it.  Yes, I agree that Christ was a sin-offering.  That makes perfect sense.  (And for the record, in case there was any doubt, I was never among those who were misled to believe that Christ was "made sin," by a certain person whose name I won't mention so as not to give him any "air" time or continual free-advertising.)

As for what Jesus said "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?", I don't at this time fully understand why he even said that using those words, and not words that those standing near him heard properly, because some thought they heard him say something He did not say and they went around saying -- "Why is that man calling out for Elijah?" 

God did not forsake Him, obviously.  There were a few other verses in that Psalm that Jesus could have just as easily quoted to prove that he was who David was speaking of that would have left no confusion in those standing near.  Why did he pick that particular verse?  I'm willing to wait for God to open my eyes to it, but I believe it might have something to do with the timing that he spoke those words (at about the ninth hour).

What does the time he said those words have to do with the price of tea in China?  Quite a lot I'm sure.  But as far as I know, Ray never touched on or spoke about that aspect of it, and so obviously that's going to remain an area of my own personal study and I won't bring it to the forum again, as it's going to lead to debate, I have no doubt.

Thanks again for your helpful reply and for the links. 

God bless you, Kat.

[Kat]

Hi Gina, no debate... just looking at these Scripture, I think it can be very helpful to discuss these things.

"Why is that man calling out for Elijah?" 

Thinking about the resemblance between the word 'Eli' and the name Elijah, Jesus was certainly weak and may not been able to speak loudly to be well heard. Another thing is the Jews believed that Elijah would come first as a forerunner to the Messiah. 

Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

The possible misunderstanding about what this verse meant could have been the Jews sarcastic way of saying that was what Christ was doing to prove His Messiahship. OR an intentional mistake by the Jews, who knew very well what he said, but were set on deriding Him to the end and to misrepresent who He really was.

Just more thoughts.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Gina]

Well unfortunately at this point, we can only speculate. 

And I unintentionally misquoted the text.  Dang it - I hate it when I do that crap.

They didn't ask why He was calling out for Elijah, as I said before.  The text says, some began saying that He was calling out for Elijah: 

47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
48 Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49 But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."

All we know for certain is:  We don't know who said it.   Which kinda sucks, ya know?

I suppose it could have been Romans or Greeks who weren't familiar with the language he was using, which could explain why they thought he said something he didn't.   Don't know.

If Jesus was so short of breath that he couldn't speak loud enough to be heard audibly, then who actually did hear Him speak what He spoke?  Someone heard Him correctly.  So the notion that He couldn't be heard goes right out the window.

If it was the Jews that were saying that and they understood what He said but began spreading lies, then obviously they were false witnesses and play actors.  Which means that they actually did know who Jesus was but. as per usual, they were pretending / acting as if they didn't know.

But then we would have to tackle this text:    "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

I love discussing these things but I am human and I get so impatient and before I know it, I say something I shouldn't or start inadvertently teaching.  And then as if that weren't bad enough, I forget that God gave me all the answers and truths I will ever need at this time, and then I become doubtful and p'd off, and I hate it when I do that crap too.   Ray said to me once in a private email exchange:  "Eve had everything she needed but a snake convinced her it wasn't enough."  It's like God can never, ever do enough.  It's never enough.  I don't want to go there.  I sense God saying, Don't go there, Gina. 

I know the answer is there and makes perfect sense.  All in good time.   

I believe a good look into what it was about the ninth hour and the timing of those spoken words is in order here, because obviously Someone thought the hour He spoke those very words was important enough to bring to our attention.

God bless you, Kat.  You're a patient, intelligent, generous and kindhearted woman and I appreciate your willingness to hear me out.

Gina

[Dave in Tenn]

Gal 5:22,23  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

"Faith" is both 'of' AND 'in'.  But we shouldn't lose sight of just Who's "faith" it is, even as we share in it.

Here's what faith 'is':

Heb 11:1  Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.


I'll raise the question for thought.  There's no need to answer--especially without thought.     Just what is the Faith of the Lord Jesus? 

[Gina]

Just what is the Faith of the Lord Jesus? 

Now that is a good question! 

[Gina]

What is the faith OF Jesus Christ?

That the Father is reconciling the world to Himself through Jesus Christ, our mediator.  That God will make many sons and daughters who are in the image of God, and be the seed of Abraham, and that He will not fail.

Isaiah 43

22 For I am God, and there is no other.

23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

[But it doesn't end at shame...]

Romans 14:11  It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"

Rev. 21

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne [the throne of God's temple not made with hands ], saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

5 And He who sits on the throne said,
   "Behold, I am making all things new."
     And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and
      true."   

And that, I believe, is the faith OF Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior Who sits on the throne of your hearts, in a nutshell.  (He doesn't sit in a nutshell on our hearts, but you know what I mean.) 

[lurquer]

Gina and Kat,

Excellent responses...thank you for your thoughts--and I agree with them completely!

But I didn't mean to suggest that Christ was doubting his Father... I was more thinking he was maybe doubting himself in that hour.  His flesh, that is.  In all other instances where we read of Christ's TRUST in his Father (e.g., all miracles he'd performed), we know he had said "Father, I know you always hear me, but I say these words for the benefit of those here, that they may know that I am He..." (paraphrasing). He never showed any doubt in his Father's ability.

But when it came down to his final act...His very death...  He knew, like no other man, what precisely he was about to endure.  And it was horrible.  And he was, after all, a Man (in the flesh). When he took his disciples to the garden and began to pray, the scripture says that they could not stay awake.  Some have said they were just lazy, or carnal, or whatever (they were), but, the reason they slept was actually described in the scripture:  they were asleep "by reason of their grief" (Luke 22:45, Rotherhams).  I'm sure some of us understand how a profound grief/depression can cause that effect!  They pretty much understood what was about to happen to their Lord; after all, they had just been plainly told during the supper.

So Christ comes to them and awakens them and says "the spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak".  But WHO was he talking about?  Himself or the disciples?  Whose flesh was most weak at that moment?  Theirs or his?  Like Ray intimated in his discussion about this, perhaps he was praying to the Father that he would be able to continue the mission... In that case, he was 'doubting' his flesh could go through with it...that he was afraid he might actually die before he had the chance to be the sacrificed Lamb of God.

Anyway, those were my mental meanderings about Jesus' 'doubt' (if it existed).  I was only suggesting that doubt maybe a human emotion, not a sin.  I'm not convinced either way. 

[Kat]

Gal 5:22,23  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

"Faith" is both 'of' AND 'in'.  But we shouldn't lose sight of just Who's "faith" it is, even as we share in it.

Here's what faith 'is':

Heb 11:1  Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.


I'll raise the question for thought.  There's no need to answer--especially without thought.     Just what is the Faith of the Lord Jesus? 

Here are a couple of things from Ray that I think will shed a lot of light on this question about faith.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.msg43145.html#msg43145 ----------

James 2:14  What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? Can faith save him?

He ask the rhetorical question, "can faith save us?" Of course the answer is no. That's interesting, you know faith is talked a lot about, as we are justified by faith, especially in Paul's writing, Rom 3:30, Gal 3:8. We are justified by faith, but nowhere does it say in the scripture that we are saved by faith, nowhere. 

We are saved by grace. It's free, gratuitous gift from God, but it does something. It teaches - it chastens - it educates - it is divine influence upon the seat of our emotions - thinking - plans - purpose - goals - aspirations and everything else. It divinely influences that heart, you can't help it, it does it. 

This just smacks free will right in the teeth. According to true free will, God can't make you do anything, you have to choose it on your own. How can you choose to do good unless God divinely influences your heart? You see, you can't. But the second you say He does, you've taken away man's free will. Now God is doing it. What an evil contradiction this thing of free will and free choices is.

So he says in James, can faith save us? Of course the answer is no. We're justified by faith, but we are not saved by faith.

So when you come right down to it, when I asked you, what is grace and what is faith? You're tossing around these words and basically you're all right. Bob said love and it's true, it's love, grace is love. Faith is love. All these things ultimately are love, because God is love. Whatever all these other things are that go out from love, you bring them back in, and it all comes down to one thing, it's LOVE.

So we have the word grace... we have the word faith. Each one has shades of different meanings and so on. But they both do the same thing, don't they. 

Christ says if you call Me Lord and Master, if you believe that, that's faith... believing. If you believe that I am your Lord and Master, why don't you do what I say? You see that? Faith is doing. 

James says, faith without works or faith without doing is dead. Of course some thinks that that contradicts Paul, who said we're justified by faith not of works. But that is too big of a subject to get into here. But, no they are not contradicting each other. One is emphasized one thing over another, more than the other. But they both involved the same thing. 

They both quote that Abraham lived by faith. That's what it was all about... faith. Paul says Abraham had that faith before he was even circumcised, before he obeyed that ritual to be circumcised and so on. James emphasized that, how did we know Abraham had faith? Because God told him to sacrifice his son and he brought the knife and was ready to do it. He proved his faith. 

But they both do something, all these things, they do something. If we think of these words in theological terms all the time, you'll never know what they mean. They are very simple, okay. Faith is you BELIEVE what God says, therefore you DO what God says. 

Grace is a gift, you don't have it. Now this is something you can't conjure up, it's a gift of God. It's always the grace OF God, it comes from God, there is nothing you can do. You say, 'well what about the faith we've got, that comes from us.' No no no, it says in Eph 2: 8-10 "...faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELF, it is the gift of God;" 

The faith it's a gift, the grace it's a gift, everything is a gift. It's all a gift of God... it's all faith, it's all grace, they are all one thing. Grace causes you to live rightly. What does faith do? If you believe God, you do what He says. It is virtually the same thing.
v

Titus 2:11  "For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men,
v. 12  Teaching us...."

What is doing the teaching? Grace is doing the teaching. It's laboring - it's teachings - it's the divine influence of God on our heart, it's teaching us. So it's...

v. 12 ...TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (eon - age);

So when it says God judges us by chastening us in 1 Cor. 11:32, the word chasten there is the Greek word 'paideuō.' Then when God says He graces us, by 'teaching us' (Titus 2:12), the word teaching is the same word paideuo and it means - to labor, to work, to chasten, to punish, to teach, to educate. There is like a dozen different words that this means, this 'teaching.' That's what it does, it actually does something. In the same way what it does for us, it will eventually do for the world.
v

We learn that we get the heart... and unbelief here, 2 things. Oh that there were such a heart in them (Deu 5:29)... then in Hebrews 3:12 it says, I hope that it's not found in you such "an evil heart of unbelief." Those 2 go hand in hand. 

There is one other aspect to this thing of grace. We saw it a little bit in Hebrews 3:12 that says, "an evil heart of unbelief." Now you all understand that in the Bible when it talks about believe, that's the verb. Faith is the noun. Faith and believe are the same Greek word, they're the same. What is faith? It means to believe. If you believe, you have what? Faith. They are both the same word, one is a noun, one is a verb, that's the only difference. 


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Ray

I read your response today to a just published email to a person concerning faith.  This was part of your answer....

"I am somewhat aware of all of these arguments against the faith.  They do no hinder me. And why is that?  Because I LIVE BY FAITH, that's why.  But isn't faith based on PROVEN HISTORICAL FACTS?  If we don't have PROOF, then we don't have FAITH, right?  WRONG!  Faith is belief and assurance that is NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE.  The King James definition of faith in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews is worse than awful.  Faith is an assurance that something is true even though there is no absolute tangible proof for that faith. So where does one find such a faith? He doesn't--IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD!

That is the magic of faith. Only those GIFTED WITH IT, HAVE IT--"For by grace are you saved [that being WHEN you are saved--yet future] through FAITH;  and that NOT of yourselves:  it is the GIFT OF GOD"

OK I can accept that.  However, years ago I lived with a devout muslim who would say the same thing to me.  He did not care about any contrary evidence to his faith.  he believed because he said >>>it is FAITH.  It is an "a priori" it is true and its resides in the center of his being.  He once told me if an angel from heaven announced to him another faith, he would not accept it, if it contradicted the Koran and Islam.

How is your faith any different than his?  A different book, of course, but the character of the faith is the same...you both believe it is a gift from God and accept it not based on evidence.

I wish that it could be shown that those who have the true faith, that their faith is of a different character than those with untrue faith, but apparently it cannot.  The human experience of faith appears to be identical in all people.  That faith may cause different actions depending on the tenets of the person or book it is built on, but the raw faith itself, is the same.  If you disagree, how can you explain that those who have faith in belief systems contrary to yours, are by any objective measure, responding in kind to their inborn faith to follow those belief systems just as you?

I think correct faith is a gift from God, meaning the truth, but that faith itself, is found in all types of people.  They believe with the same assurance as you do.
Doug

Dear Doug:
You are making something difficult and mysterious out of something that is quite simple (for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear).

"Faith" is not a "Bible" word, or a "religious" word: it is a WORD, and it has a meaning.  Here is a definition of faith from my American Heritge College Dictionary: "faith--1 CONFIDENT BELIEF in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. BELIEF that does not REST ON LOGICAL PROOF OR MATERIAL EVIDENCE....." etc.

Those are very good definitions of faith, but as one can clearly and instantly see these definitions go totally contrary to the way that the King James defines faith in Heb. 11:2, "Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen." Hogwash. Faith is the diametric opposite of "evidence and substance."  When one possesses absolute "substance and evidence" regarding any matter, the last thing on earth such a person needs is "faith!"

Just days ago I heard Rod Parsley quote that definition of faith from the King James Bible. No wonder they have not a clue as to anything SPIRITUAL.

Now then, faith is a word that has a definite meaning. Muslims have "faith" in Allah, and Christians have "faith" in the "God of Abraham," and some few have "faith" in the Scriptures that tell us how we are to have faith in God.  They are all "faiths" as you suggest, so are they not all the same?  No, of course not. The qauality or kind of faith one has is graded by what that particular faith accomplishes.  Do you rely on the God you have faith in, do you live a godly life because of it, do you love God and all humanity, are you overcoming the sins that God says He hates, etc., etc.?

Maybe a "tangible" example will help:

Money--you have money and I have money. It all "looks" like the same money.  But one can buy food for his family with his money and another can buy booze with his money and let his family go without. Is there a difference? You bet.

Guns--you have gun and I have a gun (both made by the same manufacturer). So our guns are the same, correct? There is no difference in your gun and my gun, correct?  Not at this point, but what do the two guns produce? One man shoots game to feed his family with his gun, while the other SHOOTS HIS FAMILY.  Is there a difference? You bet.

James has great and simple wisdom in this matter:  "Even so faith, if it has not works, IS DEAD...Yea a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me YOU faith [this is one kind] without works, and I will show you MY faith [this is a second kind] BY MY WORKS"  (James 2:17-18).

Two faiths, two entirely different manifestations of that faith.

It's a huge subject and deserves a whole paper on it.

God be with you,
Ray