> General Discussions
The Marriage Vow
Gina:
--- Quote from: Neo on February 16, 2015, 08:40:00 AM ---
--- Quote from: Gina on February 15, 2015, 11:11:33 PM ---Michael, you have such a double standard. You say you believe that vows are unnecessary when it comes to marriage, but then you turn around and beg us to answer you just so that you can have visible, written proof that people are in agreement with you. haha! You are a funny man, Michael.
Come on, let's stop this nonsense and be glad for what we have. A vow in marriage and a ceremony isn't some extreme heavy burden that people are under. You wed your wife, voluntarily! Nobody held a gun to your head, ha ha -- you WANTED to marry her, remember? You would have done anything to marry her, remember? So what's the big deal?
You're bringing this forum down to the dumps over something you say you're unclear on but then you finally let out your position, but still you have double standard.
If I were in your shoes, I'd be really embarrassed.
--- End quote ---
Well, Gina, all I can say is you are wrong. You're wrong about my position, you misunderstand my intentions, and you do err by fantasizing about my reasons for asking these things. You also do err in not carefully studying the scriptures with regard to this subject, but instead deferring to what 'the church' has always taught, and how the state foists their doctrine upon us. All of the wedding vows/ceremonies/accoutrements are demonstrably pagan in nature and serve no purpose for God's people. The "marriage covenant" THEORY proposed by most in Babylon is a pure, unscriptural fiction.
Do I have a double standard? I've no idea. The Lord knows. I only want the truth and I despise error. I honestly believe this matter of marriage is deeply misunderstood by God's people (especially in our Western society), and the error is propagating...and metastasizing.
I am not 100% certain about my thoughts on this, which is why I bothered to ask the members here what their ideas were (I respect your opinions). Frankly, I expected more searched-out and cognizant positions from them, so we could 'compare notes'. But it seems I'm the only one who's really given this subject some serious, long term thought. Most, instead only regurgitate what Ray said in one short study.. I love Ray and understand and accept almost everything he's taught (else I wouldn't be here). But I think he totally missed it on this and it has brought confusion (to me, at least) at a time when I was really seeking. I asked about the vow because I didn't think it existed and I wanted to know if there was something I missed--OR--are most people just accepting a doctrine blindly.
No one has the whole truth, Gina. Ray did not write scripture. We all could use some guidance. This world God made is an unimaginably complicated place with realms inside of realms and the darkness of this Age shrouds almost everything. But sometimes, God lifts the curtain--just a little bit...for those who want to see.
This discussion was not about me, or my personal life. If it helps you, I have a happy marriage with my wife; we love each other and neither of us have any regrets. She doesn't see things the way I do (she is totally ambivalent about these Truths we've learned here, for instance), but that's ok. No, I did not intend to "bring this forum down in the dumps"...Please, really? If that is the consensus, let others say so and I'll just go away. No harm, no foul. And no, I'm not embarrassed; I have no reason to be.
Meanwhile, I'll try and answer a question that's posed about this subject. My intention is to dispel confusion--others' and my own. If that offends you, my apologies... (In any case, you said your mind was already satisfied with your understanding, so why do you keep needling me??)
--- End quote ---
Those things are an option and everybody knows it. No state in the United States requires people to do anything beyond going to a Justice of the Peace. But people opt to do lavish things because, like you said, when they are "in love" they'll do anything, they'll sign anything just be married to their sweetheart.
Now, if deep down in their heart of hearts, they really didn't want to do those things to begin with, but they did them to appease their wife or their wife's parents, then they were giving only to get. And that's not good. That's selfish giving.
You said yourself that you would have said anything and signed anything in order to get what you wanted. That's what you said. That's clear enough to me.
That shows me where your heart was at when you married your wife. It doesn't sound like you were marrying her for HER benefit, so much as your own.
You have admitted that you weren't using your head when you said your vows and signed the papers. That's not the State's fault, Michael. Nobody twisted your arm to recite any vows -- you said them voluntarily and eagerly.
I believe you think I'm needling you because you don't like the points that I'm making, because they are good points. I gave you lots of scripture but of course they make no sense to you.
I have also said many kind things here, but you either chose to ignore those too, or did you not understand what I was saying? That's okay, you don't have to answer that! Take your time, think it over before you answer. I don't want you rushing into anything.........................
Gina:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on February 16, 2015, 01:09:31 PM ---With all this talk about Marriage and legalism, how its tied to the state, etc.. just remember what Ray pointed out which should not be ignored:
"Although ordained of God, marriage is more physical than spiritual, from a scriptural point of view. Boy I can see the stones coming for saying that, but it’s true. We’re talking about the definition of the word, what the word actually means. If marriage was a spiritual institution, instead of a carnal institution. Why do 50% of those getting married divorce? What is spiritual about that? If all the people got married into a spiritual relationship, there would hardly ever be a divorce. But it’s not. People go into marriage with a carnal mind, with physical expectations. Now most couples who get married do love each other, I’m not saying they don’t, I’m just saying it’s not a spiritual union."
Perhaps Neo, this is why, there is no direct specification as to what the "vow" should be when bringing two people together, because its meant to be a physical carnal institution.
Or perhaps, the vow is along the lines of ...
Do you Adam hereby take Eve to "... Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. " (Gen 1:28)
I do your Majesty! I do! ;)
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Me likey. :)
wat:
Ok Neo, can you state your views explicitly for me? I say marriage is done through a wedding with witnesses. What do you say?
How is a marriage defined by God? Interesting explanation of the woman at the well. I don't know if it's true, I'll have to think about it some more. But you say the woman had illicit marriages, six to be exact, the five before and the one now. She was married, only illicitly, but still married. What makes a marriage illicit and what makes a marriage lawful? Are the people who get married today not actually married according to God? How do I get married the right way? I have a nephew born out of wedlock, or so I thought. His parents never had a wedding. They had sex of course. Are they married? If so, is it lawful or unlawful? I'll admit I'm having trouble understanding your view completely, so if you could spell it out for me, I think it would help this discussion.
lurquer:
--- Quote from: Gina on February 16, 2015, 01:36:46 PM ---
You said yourself that you would have said anything and signed anything in order to get what you wanted. That's what you said. That's clear enough to me.
That shows me where your heart was at when you married your wife. It doesn't sound like you were marrying her for HER benefit, so much as your own.
--- End quote ---
Haha, Gina...if you only knew. Anyway, as I said, this isn't about me. I am certainly not the example to follow, in any case. There's really no need in pursuing this angle so I won't.
--- Quote ---I believe you think I'm needling you because you don't like the points that I'm making, because they are good points. I gave you lots of scripture but of course they make no sense to you.
I have also said many kind things here, but you either chose to ignore those too, or did you not understand what I was saying? That's okay, you don't have to answer that!
--- End quote ---
Sorry to dissappoint, but you made no good points to me. I would have conceded them if you did. I am also sorry I missed your kind words to me; perhaps I did not not understand them that way. I do not think you are an unkind person, Gina. I would just ignore you if I did. But you said you weren't interested in this discussion...yet you keep at it. That's ok with me too. It just felt like "needling" if you really didn't care about the subject. Maybe you really do.
Dave in Tenn:
Ok.. I think I get it now. Ray defined "marriage" in a way you don't agree with.
From the article:
"We’re talking about the definition of the word, what the word actually means."
Do you think he's wrong about how the word is used in the scripture? Not asking a theological question--just looking for an understanding of sound language.
I've got a boatload of other questions. The first is: Do we need to go to 14 pages to get one answered?
You have your view. You're welcome to it. If you and Ray had shared more than a discussion of a biblical question and had, instead, jointly counseled a young couple considering getting married, would you have been in agreement with how they should proceed? If not, what would you tell the young couple?
Do you think 'custom to whom custom is due, tribute to whom tribute is due' has any bearing on the subject? Even if the 'customs-collector' is pagan?
I know a woman who married and divorced the same guy three times. Then he died. What does God think about this? Were they ever married 'in the eyes of God'? Did that change through three divorces and two more weddings? Were they never divorced? How would you counsel her to proceed?
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