> General Discussions
The Marriage Vow
lurquer:
--- Quote from: Loc on February 16, 2015, 03:23:54 PM ---Ok Neo, can you state your views explicitly for me? I say marriage is done through a wedding with witnesses. What do you say?
How is a marriage defined by God? Interesting explanation of the woman at the well. I don't know if it's true, I'll have to think about it some more. But you say the woman had illicit marriages, six to be exact, the five before and the one now. She was married, only illicitly, but still married. What makes a marriage illicit and what makes a marriage lawful? Are the people who get married today not actually married according to God? How do I get married the right way? I have a nephew born out of wedlock, or so I thought. His parents never had a wedding. They had sex of course. Are they married? If so, is it lawful or unlawful? I'll admit I'm having trouble understanding your view completely, so if you could spell it out for me, I think it would help this discussion.
--- End quote ---
Hi Loc,
What I say about marriage is not the issue. I’m a seeker, like you. I don't define marriage, nor have I attempted to. As I said before, it belongs to God; He invented it, let Him describe it. “yea, let God be true, but every man a liar”
But, if you could have all your questions above answered, you would understand marriage indeed! (I don’t know if we can get there from here, but I’ll at least try and re-state what I have already said—hope it helps).
Does God say “a marriage is done by a wedding and witnesses?” If not, where did you get that? I’ve searched, and not found any such thing in the scriptures. The word “marriage” is like many other dictionary words, in that when you look them up, they have more than one meaning. Right? In the Bible, it is used to describe a sexual unity between a man and a woman (whether or not it is adultery/fornication or ‘legitimate’). Whether a marriage is legitimate or not depends on the circumstances of your “joining”…in other words, were you “qualified” to be husband and wife? I think we all understand the difference between being a virgin, and being a harlot (or an adulteress). It is not lawful to marry your mother, or your sister, or someone else’s wife, ok? Everyone here agrees with that, including Ray. As an example, if you "marry" your neighbor's wife, it is not legitamte (even if the state issues you a "license"--as they surely will, provided you pay the correct fees and fill out the proper paperwork).
The word marriage is ALSO used to describe a “marriage by vow”, or an espousal. In this marriage, the couple is treated as if they were married physically (ONE FLESH), even though they have not yet consummated it.. Like we saw before, this was the case with Joseph and Mary during the time of her pregnancy with Jesus. I don’t think either of these two principles is in dispute, so I’m not “teaching” anything here—only stating what we already know.
The scriptures clearly delineate these in Deut. 22: 22-24:
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
See how the “married woman” is distinguished from the “virgin” who was betrothed… yet both had a “husband”. The former was married by sexual union, the latter, married by “vow”. Yet both were stoned for their unfaithfulness.
There are the two types of marriages, according to the Bible I read. And of the “marriage by joining" (union), we see that can be either “legitimate”, or “adulterous”. We understand the difference there.
Paul said in 1 Cor 7,
34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
Clearly the “wife” who is married, is not the “virgin”, who is unmarried. Notice, please, that is PAUL’s distinction, not mine. He has used their sexual past to identify their marital status. (Some have said here that “you don’t have to have sex to be married”…Paul explicitly disagrees.)
Read the rest of the chapter…see how Paul tells the betrothed husband if he wants to “keep his virgin” (as a virgin), he “doeth better” than he who “marries” her! Get it?
Starting from the beginning of scripture, over and again, you will see the same pattern of a man “going into a woman” and “marrying her”.. I pointed many of these out already (Jacob and Leah/Rachel, Isaac and Rebekah, Abraham and Hagar). Here’s another example:
Gen 8: 6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Purely a sexual union… Check it out: Onan was ok with the sex, but not with “raising up seed”, so God killed him too.
We talked about the woman at the well, and the reference to King Herod “having his brother’s wife”. John tells him (at the risk of being killed!), “it is not lawful to have thy brother’s wife!” But the scripture says Herod “married” her! So, he must have applied for the proper divorce permits and filled out the right paperwork and all that, I guess…to make it “legal”. But then, how did John declare it was NOT legal? What law was he referring to? Seems to me, Herod skipped the ceremony on that one…maybe the “license” too. Nevertheless, he was “married” to another man’s wife! So says the text.
Well, that’s what I’ve seen in the scriptures defining the two types of marriage. I saw nowhere in any of these passages (or any other) where a “marriage vow” or “marriage covenant” or “license” or any such thing was either required, or mentioned…
And that’s where I get my views. How about you?
lurquer:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on February 16, 2015, 05:17:22 PM ---Ok.. I think I get it now. Ray defined "marriage" in a way you don't agree with.
From the article:
"We’re talking about the definition of the word, what the word actually means."
Do you think he's wrong about how the word is used in the scripture? Not asking a theological question--just looking for an understanding of sound language.
--- End quote ---
I don't know, Dave. I've offered tons of scripture here on this thread wherein the word was used. Do YOU think he used it wrong?
--- Quote ---I've got a boatload of other questions. The first is: Do we need to go to 14 pages to get one answered?
You have your view. You're welcome to it. If you and Ray had shared more than a discussion of a biblical question and had, instead, jointly counseled a young couple considering getting married, would you have been in agreement with how they should proceed? If not, what would you tell the young couple?
--- End quote ---
I'm not a marriage counselor. Would never be one. I've went to a few before...didn't like it. Solved nothing for me.
--- Quote ---Do you think 'custom to whom custom is due, tribute to whom tribute is due' has any bearing on the subject? Even if the 'customs-collector' is pagan?
--- End quote ---
No.
--- Quote ---I know a woman who married and divorced the same guy three times. Then he died. What does God think about this? Were they ever married 'in the eyes of God'? Did that change through three divorces and two more weddings? Were they never divorced? How would you counsel her to proceed?
--- End quote ---
Not enough information. Again, I'm not a counselor. But here's what Jesus said:
Matt 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
If that applies, you have your answer. I don't know how to help people like this, Dave. But I think all of the answers are in God's Word. Neither the church nor the state will give us the clarity we seek.
lurquer:
Hmm, just noticed something..
"Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery.."
So, if you leave your wife and "marry" another woman, but don't have sex with her, do you still "commit adultery"? Maybe there's a nice loophole there for a good Bible-believeing christian to take advantage of! ;D
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Neo on February 16, 2015, 08:07:01 PM ---
Does God say “a marriage is done by a wedding and witnesses?” If not, where did you get that? I’ve searched, and not found any such thing in the scriptures. The word “marriage” is like many other dictionary words, in that when you look them up, they have more than one meaning. Right? In the Bible, it is used to describe a sexual unity between a man and a woman (whether or not it is adultery/fornication or ‘legitimate’). Whether a marriage is legitimate or not depends on the circumstances of your “joining”…in other words, were you “qualified” to be husband and wife? I think we all understand the difference between being a virgin, and being a harlot (or an adulteress). It is not lawful to marry your mother, or your sister, or someone else’s wife, ok? Everyone here agrees with that, including Ray. As an example, if you "marry" your neighbor's wife, it is not legitamte (even if the state issues you a "license"--as they surely will, provided you pay the correct fees and fill out the proper paperwork).
The word marriage is ALSO used to describe a “marriage by vow”, or an espousal. In this marriage, the couple is treated as if they were married physically (ONE FLESH), even though they have not yet consummated it.. Like we saw before, this was the case with Joseph and Mary during the time of her pregnancy with Jesus. I don’t think either of these two principles is in dispute, so I’m not “teaching” anything here—only stating what we already know.
The scriptures clearly delineate these in Deut. 22: 22-24:
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
See how the “married woman” is distinguished from the “virgin” who was betrothed… yet both had a “husband”. The former was married by sexual union, the latter, married by “vow”. Yet both were stoned for their unfaithfulness.
There are the two types of marriages, according to the Bible I read. And of the “marriage by joining" (union), we see that can be either “legitimate”, or “adulterous”. We understand the difference there.
Paul said in 1 Cor 7,
34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
Clearly the “wife” who is married, is not the “virgin”, who is unmarried. Notice, please, that is PAUL’s distinction, not mine. He has used their sexual past to identify their marital status. (Some have said here that “you don’t have to have sex to be married”…Paul explicitly disagrees.)
Read the rest of the chapter…see how Paul tells the betrothed husband if he wants to “keep his virgin” (as a virgin), he “doeth better” than he who “marries” her! Get it?
Starting from the beginning of scripture, over and again, you will see the same pattern of a man “going into a woman” and “marrying her”.. I pointed many of these out already (Jacob and Leah/Rachel, Isaac and Rebekah, Abraham and Hagar). Here’s another example:
Gen 8: 6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Purely a sexual union… Check it out: Onan was ok with the sex, but not with “raising up seed”, so God killed him too.
We talked about the woman at the well, and the reference to King Herod “having his brother’s wife”. John tells him (at the risk of being killed!), “it is not lawful to have thy brother’s wife!” But the scripture says Herod “married” her! So, he must have applied for the proper divorce permits and filled out the right paperwork and all that, I guess…to make it “legal”. But then, how did John declare it was NOT legal? What law was he referring to? Seems to me, Herod skipped the ceremony on that one…maybe the “license” too. Nevertheless, he was “married” to another man’s wife! So says the text.
Well, that’s what I’ve seen in the scriptures defining the two types of marriage. I saw nowhere in any of these passages (or any other) where a “marriage vow” or “marriage covenant” or “license” or any such thing was either required, or mentioned…
And that’s where I get my views. How about you?
--- End quote ---
Neo,
Paul in 1 Cor 7 doesn't use "their sexual past to identify their marital status."
You're twisting that. Paul is saying that a married woman does not remain a virgin by status of being married. That is, when you are married, you have obligations to please your partner. That's why he says "there is a DIFFERENCE." He isn't saying that you get married by pleasing your partner or that sex makes marriage.
Listen:
1 Cor 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
Notice Paul says "THE WIFE" and also "THE HUSBAND." For Paul to be able to say "wife" and "husband," they have to be married. It is in being married that the power over the body is relinquished to the other partner. This then allows for lawful sex to occur; However, if as you state, that marriage is the "Sexual unity" or "sexual past," then Paul could never say what he said. Two people who are not married do not have the power over the other's body (Because remember Paul said HUSBAND and WIFE) making any sex they have unlawful. That includes the sex you say is required to make a marriage legal ,or that makes a marriage a marriage. We would then have to conclude that unlawful sex leads to lawful marriage. I don't think so! That's called rape and or adultery. Both marriage and sex must be legal in God's eyes.
Without explicitly saying it, Paul has shown the order of things for us. First the marriage THEN the sex BUT sex is not required for the marriage! This is the pattern I believe agree's completely with the scriptures.
1 Cor 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1 Cor 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
1 Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
Why does he care for how He may please his wife? FOR "The husband doesn't have power of his own body but the wife.."
1 Cor 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
The same thing applies for the woman. The things of the world are the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Sex involves two of those "things of the world." (1 John 2:16)
Let Paul's words speak for themselves. No verse becomes at all its own interpretation. You can't establish doctrine with one witness. You need two or three.
While Genesis 38:8 is rather ambiguous in the order of events IN THE KJV, that is, "go in unto her" is followed by "and marry her," if you continue you the story, you later find, that Judah, also went into tamer, but she did not become his wife so sex cannot equate to marriage otherwise tamer would have been known afterwards as Judah's wife. She never is though.
Here is 38:8 in a few other translations:
(CLV) And saying is Judah to Onan, "Come to your brother's wife and wed her, your brother's widow, and raise seed for your brother.
(Rotherham) Then said Judah to Onan, Go in unto thy brothers wife, and fulfil the duty of a brother-in-law unto her,—and raise up seed, to thy brother.
(RV) And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
(ESV) Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother."
(ASV) And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
As you can see, this ambiguity disappears in other translations which appear to be more consistent in that the word used as "marry" (Gen 38:8) should be one that relates specifically to the levitical duty of marrying and raising up seed for the deceased to carry on that name so it is not cut out from all of isreal. You see this corrected in other translations.
I found a good example of this concept of raising seed for a deceased in Ruth's final chapter:
Rth 4:8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.
Rth 4:9 And Boaz said unto the elders, and unto all the people, Ye are witnesses this day, that I have bought all that was Elimelech's, and all that was Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi.
Rth 4:10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.
Rth 4:11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:
Rth 4:12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman.
Rth 4:13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.
Notice Ruth became his wife first. This is followed by an "and when," implying that, sometime afterwards, meaning later, WHEN, that's AFTER they were married. They had sex.
God bless,
Alex
Ian 155:
--- Quote from: Neo on February 16, 2015, 08:02:11 AM ---I understand what you are saying, Ian. Thanks for (finally) making sense. And I agree with this at least. But I still do believe Adam and Eve were also literal human beings. If you have scripture to show otherwise, I'm all ears.
--- End quote ---
Well Neo I can only tell you that when one interprets the word literally one is still in the process of being converted,this is not implying that you are without Christ as we Know he is all in all... I get shown stuff that is pretty "whack" as opposed to what we have been traditionally taught throughout our lives in sunday school ,church etc.
I have proof though ...found in John 6v56 "The words that I speak they are spirit and they are life" as opposed to literal (carnal) understanding, being death, which is what Paul explains in Romans.
So in terms of Adam and eve, this union is a shadow of what Christ is to us.Now a Shadow is not the real deal I mean and ray does mention somewhere... would you rather have the shadow of a new sports car or the real thing ??
Adam loved Eve he was prepared to "Die" for her (he knew eating what eve offered would cause death, likewise, The Christ, for his bride ....thats You.
The word tells us to ask and we shall receive... so if its sight you need, do a Blind Bartimaeus on yourself.... "ask, as he did" Lord open mine eyes so I may see...
The Flesh (our understanding) counts for Nothing - it is the Spirit (the mind of Christ) that quickens.
Spiritual Eve is Us... MEN AND WOMEN (mankind) Spiritual ADAM.... IS CHRIST
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