> General Discussions
The Marriage Vow
lurquer:
Alex:
--- Quote ---Neo,
Paul in 1 Cor 7 doesn't use "their sexual past to identify their marital status."
You're twisting that. Paul is saying that a married woman does not remain a virgin by status of being married. That is, when you are married, you have obligations to please your partner. That's why he says "there is a DIFFERENCE." He isn't saying that you get married by pleasing your partner or that sex makes marriage.
Listen:
1 Cor 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
Notice Paul says "THE WIFE" and also "THE HUSBAND." For Paul to be able to say "wife" and "husband," they have to be married. It is in being married that the power over the body is relinquished to the other partner. This then allows for lawful sex to occur; However, if as you state, that marriage is the "Sexual unity" or "sexual past," then Paul could never say what he said. Two people who are not married do not have the power over the other's body (Because remember Paul said HUSBAND and WIFE) making any sex they have unlawful. That includes the sex you say is required to make a marriage legal ,or that makes a marriage a marriage. We would then have to conclude that unlawful sex leads to lawful marriage. I don't think so! That's called rape and or adultery. Both marriage and sex must be legal in God's eyes.
Without explicitly saying it, Paul has shown the order of things for us. First the marriage THEN the sex BUT sex is not required for the marriage! This is the pattern I believe agree's completely with the scriptures.
1 Cor 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1 Cor 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
1 Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
Why does he care for how He may please his wife? FOR "The husband doesn't have power of his own body but the wife.."
1 Cor 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
The same thing applies for the woman. The things of the world are the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Sex involves two of those "things of the world." (1 John 2:16)
Let Paul's words speak for themselves. No verse becomes at all its own interpretation. You can't establish doctrine with one witness. You need two or three.
--- End quote ---
Alex,
Let’s go back to your quote from Ray where he said, “marriage is more physical than spiritual…it is a carnal institution…it is not a spiritual union”.
Ray is right. Somewhere along the way, that truth got lost in the confusion of how the marriage is established by God (physically, primarily; covenantal, secondarily ). If you are able to cleanse your mind of all pre-conceived ideas of the church and state, start over and read the scriptures “anew” from beginning to end, you will clearly see this. That is in fact how Ray learned all of the truths he’s presented here on this site.
Paul, in 1 Corinthians 7 verifies this. In fact, if there is a “prescription” for marriage in the New Testament anywhere, this chapter is it. For a NT believer who knew nothing of the “cultural norms” of marriage, but wanted to know how the BIBLE explains it, defines it, regulates it, he could merely read 1 Cor 7, and understand it (well enough to be right with God, anyway). It’s all there…Read the whole chapter with your colored glasses off, and just let Paul’s words speak for themselves.
From beginning to end, it is about the physicality of marriage (he talks about the spiritual connotations in a different place, of course). Because, as Ray (inadvertently?) explained in your quote, THAT is what marriage IS.
In the first half of the chapter, he is speaking to those who ARE married (sexual unity) or who are determined to BE married—“if they cannot contain”. In the second half (Versus 25 on), he instructs primarily those who have not yet married, or are undecided—those who are betrothed.
It is important to understand that in those times (and long before), a man might be betrothed, that is PROMISED to a wife, at a very young age. The woman, frankly, had no say in it at all. These were “arranged marriages”. The man actually bought the wife from the father (with money, or with labor) and she was thus “promised” to him—thus a marriage by covenant, or vow (the vow was essentially the father’s). The woman (usually still pre-pubescent) was then betrothed to the man. I pointed out earlier that the status of betrothal was EQUAL to the status of (consummated) marriage, in that the penalties for breaking the covenant were the same (i.e., death for unfaithfulness). The young man was in fact called a “husband” though they were not yet married. INTERESTINGLY, though (and I might have missed something, but..) I don’t believe the woman was ever called “wife” UNTIL they were actually married!
So, with that in mind, Paul says to the young, betrothed man,
36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
38 So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
The stipulation being, she must be “post-pubescent” (flower of her age); if the man so desires, HE can TAKE her to be his WIFE, thus MARRYING her. But, if he can contain himself, so to speak, he may KEEP his virgin…Yet, she is still HIS (betrothed). Women had no say either way.
Hence, “There is a difference between a wife and a virgin”… No I’m not twisting his words.
This is getting long, so I will only deal with your NT concerns here.. But, let’s look again at what you said:
--- Quote ---Notice Paul says "THE WIFE" and also "THE HUSBAND." For Paul to be able to say "wife" and "husband," they have to be married. It is in being married that the power over the body is relinquished to the other partner. This then allows for lawful sex to occur; However, if as you state, that marriage is the "Sexual unity" or "sexual past," then Paul could never say what he said. Two people who are not married do not have the power over the other's body (Because remember Paul said HUSBAND and WIFE) making any sex they have unlawful. That includes the sex you say is required to make a marriage legal ,or that makes a marriage a marriage. We would then have to conclude that unlawful sex leads to lawful marriage. I don't think so! That's called rape and or adultery. Both marriage and sex must be legal in God's eyes.
--- End quote ---
Paul is NOT actually regulating who is lawfully permitted to marry (have sex) in this text. Why? It was understood already who was permitted to “take a wife”… He who had been betrothed to one. A man who “had HIS virgin”, bought and paid for, so to speak, had the lawful right to make her his wife, by sexually uniting with her (1Cor7:36). Barring that, a woman who was not already spoken for, and a virgin (or widow) was “fair game” for a virgin (or widowed) man, but only in the Lord (they are both believers). THOSE were the qualifications for “legal sex”…Paul had already covered that elsewhere. Therefore your concluding that “unlawful sex leads to a lawful marriage” is misguided.
So again,
--- Quote ---Two people who are not married do not have the power over the other's body (Because remember Paul said HUSBAND and WIFE) making any sex they have unlawful
--- End quote ---
You got the cart before the horse. The HUSBAND (betrothed man) DOES have power to MAKE “his virgin” his WIFE.. the sex IS lawful in such a case, making the marriage “lawful” (again, 1Cor7:36).
The confusion in not understanding biblical descriptions of things like marriage stems from not comprehending/ (believing?) the clearly stated expectations and roles of men and women, merely because they do not mesh with our modern societal understanding of things. Many things are stated plainly in the scriptures, but we don’t see them because our eyes are veiled by OUR world view.
Michael
lurquer:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on February 17, 2015, 07:27:00 AM ---
Spiritual Eve is Us... MEN AND WOMEN (mankind) Spiritual ADAM.... IS CHRIST
--- End quote ---
I understand that, Ian (and indeed I need to study more of the connotations of that!)... But does that necessarily preclude a literal Adam and a literal Eve?
Dennis Vogel:
I cannot believe how some threads degenerate. Is someone actually suggesting Adam and Eve were not real people?
So they had pretend children? And their pretend children got married and had pretend decedents which are mentioned in the scriptures?
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
etc., etc...
indianabob:
Thanks Dennis,
Once we begin to pick out which scriptures are literal and which spiritual only, we place ourselves in a challenging position. As you and as Ray have said, we need to read the words carefully and discern the intended meaning and seek much counsel along with prayer for understanding.
I appreciate all that the forum is providing and your part in keeping us together.
There is still a lot of work to do... :)
Indiana Bob
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote from: Neo on February 16, 2015, 09:02:25 PM ---Hmm, just noticed something..
"Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery.."
So, if you leave your wife and "marry" another woman, but don't have sex with her, do you still "commit adultery"? Maybe there's a nice loophole there for a good Bible-believeing christian to take advantage of! ;D
--- End quote ---
You were probably in a hurry and left off two words, "against her." Probably does not mean anything. Just a few words.
(KJV) And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
(CLV) And He is saying to them, "Whosoever should be dismissing his wife and should be marrying another is committing adultery against her."
(Rotherham) and he saith unto them—Whosoever shall divorce his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her;
(RYLT-NT) and he said to them, 'Whoever may put away his wife, and may marry another, does commit adultery against her;
I'm getting ready to go to out of town on business for the week and do not have the time now and perhaps the insight to find out what "against her" means. But I know those words were added for a reason and do not necessarily mean physical adultery.
(CLV) Yet I am saying to you that every man looking at a woman to lust for her already commits adultery with her in his heart.
(KJV) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
(Rotherham) But, I, say unto you, that, Every one who looketh on a woman so as to covet her, already, hath committed adultery with her, in his heart.
(RYLT-NT) but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.
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