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Author Topic: Update  (Read 10527 times)

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lurquer

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Update
« on: March 08, 2015, 01:48:36 AM »

Not to stir up the hornets nest again, but I saw this just recently and thought I should share...

Coming Soon to a (christian) Theater Near You...

An all-new(ly) sanctioned marriage!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2972542/They-look-like-new-boy-band-s-world-s-THREE-WAY-sex-marriage-Gay-Thai-men-tie-knot-fairytale-ceremony.html

Hey, don't you judge.  It's the ceremony and the vow that matter!   ;D
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Update
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2015, 03:31:01 AM »

Not to stir up the hornets nest again, but I saw this just recently and thought I should share...

Coming Soon to a (christian) Theater Near You...

An all-new(ly) sanctioned marriage!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2972542/They-look-like-new-boy-band-s-world-s-THREE-WAY-sex-marriage-Gay-Thai-men-tie-knot-fairytale-ceremony.html

Hey, don't you judge.  It's the ceremony and the vow that matter!   ;D

A ceremony and vow between one man and one woman (Gen 5:2, Matthew 9:4)!

On topic, I did hear about this and honestly just shrugged my shoulders and said, "Meh." God's doing as He has planned with this world and its not my place to tell Him otherwise.

God bless,
Alex

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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Rhys

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Re: Update
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2015, 04:59:11 AM »

Soooooooooooooooooooooo sweet it makes me want cry  :'(

It's a sad state for the world we live in but it is the world.

Good thing God will sort it all out

Rhys
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 05:02:40 AM by Rhys »
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Iíve noticed that I have changed in many ways since Bible Truths and the forum and one of them is living life much too seriously.

Another one is learning to rest in God and truly trust Him.

I'm still a work in progress.

lurquer

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Re: Update
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2015, 12:13:35 PM »


A ceremony and vow between one man and one woman (Gen 5:2, Matthew 9:4)!

Hey, YOU tell that to the State who issues the permits that make the marriages "legal"!  I'm sure they'll appreciate your Bible-based opinion and adjust their laws accordingly...

Quote
On topic, I did hear about this and honestly just shrugged my shoulders and said, "Meh." God's doing as He has planned with this world and its not my place to tell Him otherwise.

God bless,
Alex

Well, I just have a hard time shrugging off the wickedness that assaults me almost daily.  It's a stench in my nostrils the same as it is with God.  You're right, God ordained the evil, but if I have the attitude you have I'd be a little too close for comfort to those who "call evil good and good evil".  As Light and Salt, we should absolutely make it known to anyone who's watching (and especially our children!)  that it is wickedness, and it is intolerable.  God will punish them for their gross sins. 

I have five children, and I have a problem with the societal urge to just "Meh" the darkness of this world.  I've tried to steer them in the opposite direction so they don't become adults--and then parents--who believe 3-male marriages are "normal".  I suggest if you have children, you should do the same.

Rhys-- It's sad indeed, but I didn't get the urge to cry.  I had an altogether different urge...matter of fact I couldn't get past the first few pics without throwing up in my mouth a little bit.  :P
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Update
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2015, 04:14:08 PM »

1Co 6:9-11  Or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous ones, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor plunderers shall inherit the kingdom of God.  And some of you were these things, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.


How did "some of them" get to be not "unrighteous persons not to inherit the kingdom of God?  How do "some of us" get to not be that way, but be the other way?  How will the rest of "us" get to not be those ways and get to be the other way?

Is the salvation of all accomplished in some way other than the way "some of them" received theirs?  Are those who never were "unrighteous persons" in these ways saved already?

I haven't thought about much else of a spiritual nature these last 6 or so years since hope was given to this guy who was made subject to vanity. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Mike Gagne

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Re: Update
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2015, 04:41:07 PM »

Great post Dave!  That's the scripture came to mind when reading above!
 
Does God punish those who do iniquity?  Or does he teach them to do right through judgement. Isaiah 26:9 for when thy judgements are in the earth the inhabitants of the world ( including those three gay guys who got married )  will learn righteousness!!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 04:54:46 PM by Michael G »
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lurquer

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Re: Update
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2015, 05:14:59 PM »

I certainly agree with what you said, Dave.  But if you were trying to make a further point, I guess I just didn't see it. 

I guess my point was that (philosophical) ideas have (physical) consequences.  Failure to address sin and error when it is well known leads to the cancer growing--eventually towards a societal fatal outcome.  There are national, collective consequences also that those who were innocent of the sin must bear...when the "land is defiled, and the land itself vomiteth out its inhabitants".  To fail to decry wickedness, because you once engaged in it is a cop-out at best. 


Leviticus 18  (KJV)

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.

3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.

5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.

6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the Lord.

7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.


29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Update
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2015, 05:27:52 PM »

I'm not denying that the ones Paul referred to once 'walked in iniquity'.  Nor am I suggesting that he is encouraging them to 'cop-out'.  I see a picture of three guys who will one day be in the spiritual image of Sons.  It would be better for them had they not done what they did.  But since they did, what has to happen before they too are "washed...sanctified...justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God."

Scripture says a lot more about sin than "don't do it". 
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moshe

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Re: Update
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2015, 08:08:17 AM »

Here is a question that might has to do with the main intention of this thread.


If I could only marriage legally in Gods eyes through the government paper...

Why does my spiritual well being and integrity has to depend on my availability for the carnal government and their papers?


I agree that A ceremony and vow between one man and one woman makes a marriage (Gen 5:2, Matthew 9:4)
Paul says, Let your Yes be Yes and Your No be No.    (Yes, I have read Rays paper on marriage)

We ought to obey God before man.

I am okay with following all rational and respectful laws that governments make (traffic laws, respecting the things of others and things like that). I am just very suspicious about how this signing of random "official" papers can be able to mess up with my spiritual life. I don't want to be a fornicator.

You know, the easiest thing to do is to stop thinking about it, pay 35 dollars and sign the "official" paper, and I would also save my self all this time of posting and defending my point.

But sometimes looking for the truth becomes not the 'easiest way to go'. And I could make a big list of hypothetical situations where the signing of this "official" paper would be impossible to sign, inconvenient to sign, suspicious to sign, and meaningless to sign.

I somewhat understand how societies work and how civilizations need this kind of organization, etc, etc. I am not trying to change the worlds rules, I am just concerned about my own personal way to deal with this matters as a truth seeker.

sincerely

Moises


ps. I am open for rational discussion and reconsider my personal suspicious on the matter.
If you don't agree with me,
please be nice.


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indianabob

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Re: Update
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2015, 12:47:41 PM »

Hi Friend Moises,
Not sure that I have anything to add that has not been mentioned.

In my humble view, God looks upon the heart of those who wish to spend their lives together in full commitment to one another. That is what is important.  8)

Complying with the conventions of the culture in which one lives can be important so that the young couple and their children will have a peaceful, respected existence among the other members of that culture.

However, as far as God's judgment is concerned, it is the intent of the heart that determines guilt or innocence, approval or disapproval.

If a man and a woman meet on a deserted island, not having any established formal culture and decide to make a family together for the rest of their lives that is enough. Signing their names and writing a promise on a parchment or on the trunk of a tree on that island doesn't change the validity of their commitment.

If then a ship arrives to rescue them it would be helpful to tell all aboard the ship that they are a family and have a lifelong commitment. To my mind there would be no necessity to formalize their relationship by having a pastor of a religious denomination  pronounce them married in the eyes of God. The act of living together in a committed loving relationship has already established their situation. What can be added?

Just my view, Indianabob



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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Update
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2015, 01:26:18 PM »

Moises, To add to what Bob said, there are 'provisions' in law (at least where I live) for what is called 'common-law' marriage that recognize it after a certain period of 'living together' has occurred.  The time required may vary, but I think they are all designed to recognize the 'commitment'. 

I'm making no comment about these arrangements, just saying that they exist and are 'formally' and legally recognized, and have been for a long time.
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lauriellen

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Re: Update
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2015, 04:23:31 PM »

Thank you Dave and Indianabob,
I appreciate your comments. Above all, I think God is loving, merciful and full of compassion. This is the God that Jesus revealed.  If He doesn't hold our sins against us, then why do we think that sinners will be punished for them? Wouldn't it be more of a correction (learning righteousness) than a payment (punishment) for a sin that God says He doesn't hold against us?  I think often about the fact that I am no more deserving of the gift of faith than the next person. It is ALL God's work. He hardens who He will, He has mercy on who He will. The race is NOT to the swift, but it's all up to God. If that doesn't serve to keep us humble, I don't know what would.
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Kat

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Re: Update
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2015, 11:25:58 AM »

Here is a question that might has to do with the main intention of this thread.

If I could only marriage legally in Gods eyes through the government paper...

Why does my spiritual well being and integrity has to depend on my availability for the carnal government and their papers?


I agree that A ceremony and vow between one man and one woman makes a marriage (Gen 5:2, Matthew 9:4)
Paul says, Let your Yes be Yes and Your No be No.    (Yes, I have read Rays paper on marriage)

We ought to obey God before man.

I am okay with following all rational and respectful laws that governments make (traffic laws, respecting the things of others and things like that). I am just very suspicious about how this signing of random "official" papers can be able to mess up with my spiritual life. I don't want to be a fornicator.

You know, the easiest thing to do is to stop thinking about it, pay 35 dollars and sign the "official" paper, and I would also save my self all this time of posting and defending my point.

But sometimes looking for the truth becomes not the 'easiest way to go'. And I could make a big list of hypothetical situations where the signing of this "official" paper would be impossible to sign, inconvenient to sign, suspicious to sign, and meaningless to sign.

I somewhat understand how societies work and how civilizations need this kind of organization, etc, etc. I am not trying to change the worlds rules, I am just concerned about my own personal way to deal with this matters as a truth seeker.

sincerely
Moises

ps. I am open for rational discussion and reconsider my personal suspicious on the matter.
If you don't agree with me,
please be nice.

Hi Moises,

Our human reasoning on this matter is not what counts, we need to try to go by what is God's will and Scriptural. We know that marriage is spoken of many times and Paul says "it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Do we really think Paul is saying that to "marry" only needs to be some kind of 'private' commitment, no matter how sincere? The marriage ceremony is about the PUBLIC commitment before witnesses, family and friends, that creates a binding contact/covenant of a marriage. Those who attend bare witness to the couples words/vow of commitment, the 'witnesses' are always required for it to be legal. This creates the contract/covenant and God recognizes that.

Mal 2:14  Yet you say, "For what reason?" Because the LORD has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.

The 'piece of paper' is only to establish a legal record of the marriage commitment/contract, so the couple can then partake of the benefits; tax benefits, med. insurance benefits through a spouse's employment, receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses. Actually the church used to keep many public records of marriage, births, death dates, and is considered an official record, that's why Christians used it and in past centuries, so there would be a record. But you don't have to involve church or minister at all, there are many officials that can legally marry a couple.  Maybe in the near future you won't even need a piece of paper, maybe it will all be done through computer programs or fingerprints or something.

Also this earthly marriage is a shadow of the spiritual marriage of Christ to His bride/church. It symbolizes that perfect union when Christ becomes one with His bride and that will have many witnesses as well.

Rev 3:5  He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Think about how the marriage of the elect to Christ at resurrection will actually produce many offspring, the elect will be "saviors" "priests" and Christ, through the elect will bring salvation to the world. Eventually the rest of mankind will be born into the kingdom too.

Oba 1:21  Then saviors shall come to Mount Zion To judge the mountains of Esau, And the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them...

That's what makes the same gender/sex marriage a farce, IMO... marriage symbolizes Christ and the elect united to produce children, salvation of the rest of humanity, that is impossible for a marriage of the same gender. We have to stop trying to understand things through worldly eyes, there is no truth there.

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people to be His very own and to proclaim the wonderful deeds of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
v. 10  Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God. Once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
v. 11  Dear friends, I urge you as aliens and exiles to keep on abstaining from the desires of the flesh that wage war against the soul.
v. 12  Continue to live such upright lives among the gentiles that, when they slander you as practicers of evil, they may see your good actions and glorify God when He visits them.
v. 13  For the Lord's sake submit yourselves to every human authority: whether to the king as supreme,
v. 14  or to governors who are sent by Him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right.
v. 15  For it is God's will that by doing right you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 02:41:55 PM by Kat »
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indianabob

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Re: Update
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2015, 11:59:39 AM »

Hi Kat,
Thanks for expounding the deeper truths about the purpose of marriage.
Much appreciated. Indiana bob
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Update
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2015, 02:51:23 PM »

I would also add to this that if the state requires you to have a piece of paper to recognize your marriage before man and subsequently before God then do it. There is no power than that of God.

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

1 Peter 2
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

Of course though, do not obey those who would provoke you to do things which you know to be wrong in the eye's of God even if they are those in power for God is the one we answer to.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Lastly, we know how important witnesses are , after all, we cannot establish doctrine without at least two witnesses and the more the better! So then there need be witnesses too for marriage!

God bless,
Alex


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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

octoberose

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Re: Update
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2015, 11:54:02 PM »

I'm not trying to change the subject, but as I was reading I thought, "unconditional love". And then I think, well, is God's love truly unconditional? It's conditioned on who He is, not who we are. But do we love unconditionally? Or is that a word and a concept not in the Bible? We love with patience, kindness, we don't keep count of wrongs, and love never fails. But does that convey unconditional? Or are we, am I, using the wrong word? What do you all think?
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indianabob

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Re: Update
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2015, 02:30:33 AM »

Octoberose,

Yes God's love is unconditional.
God's favor is a different and conditional thing.

Since we have learned that God will grant salvation to ALL we have a special understanding not available to the majority. For them to not receive God's favor or blessing or approval is a sign of hate rather than unconditional love.

So as you say we humans are unable to love unconditionally other than with the indwelling of God's spirit and that takes a lifetime of practice to even come close. It is hard to love fully when we are being hurt by those we are trying to love. It is very difficult to yield the self to the needs of others.
God on the other hand can love even His enemies, which we once were.

So I do believe that God loves unconditionally even when He must admonish, correct or punish. It is done for our good, to make us better and to teach us that we need God in our lives and that without God in our lives all is vanity and subject to be burned up.

Please offer your critique of my comments.
Thanks, Indianabob
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moshe

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Re: Update
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2015, 03:31:20 AM »


Thanks you all who responded to my post, and took the time and the effort.


Kat, I just read your response right now, this you wrote seem to be the key of the matter:

"The marriage ceremony is about the PUBLIC commitment before witnesses, family and friends, that creates a binding contract/covenant of a marriage. Those who attend bare witness to the couples words/vow of commitment, the 'witnesses' are always required for it to be legal. This creates the contract/covenant and God recognizes that.

Mal 2:14  Yet you say, "For what reason?" Because the LORD has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.''


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't said it could be a private agreement:

I agree that A ceremony and vow between one man and one woman makes a marriage (Gen 5:2, Matthew 9:4)
Paul says, Let your Yes be Yes and Your No be No.


A ceremony involves witnesses.

PERSONALLY I don't consider my self a member of mostly any human institution (including all churches). I believe in obeying those who are in authority over me on a daily base, and of course, I believe God always must be first.
Does God requires ''the state'' to recognize my marriage before Him? What if I would be alien in a far away forange land? What if I was born in a society without record keeping? What if God is more concerned about 'the PUBLIC commitment before witnesses',  than ''signing random papers storage in boring old buildings''. Sometimes is hard to think a little outside the box when dealing with national traditions... How do we know that this ''traditions of men are not an idol of our heart?''

If most people around you don't recognize paper bills as money, then the 'paper money' lose its power and value; they become just green peaces of paper than nobody really cares about. Same thing happens with this 'random peaces of ''official papers''. At the end, you give them the value which they will have to you. So then, how different would it be if I print my own ''peace of paper'' and give it as much value as I would give to the other state's one. Why would God hold more important ''their paper'' than 'my paper'. I don't think the verse of subjecting your self to the higher powers has to fit on this context. If so, many brothers an sisters living in dangerous territories around the world would be in spiritual troubles.

What if a make a 'PUBLIC commitment before witnesses' (ceremony and wedding and mutual agreement --and even sign my own paper if I will) and then I try very hard to live a marriage in all honesty and piety. Then God will judge me as He better fit...   
(in an hypothetical scenario; I doubt He would come up with: but you was a fornicator all your life because you didn't sign the state's official paper)



As to establishing records, and obtaining benefits, I think that the time and circumstances in which I will find my self will dictate my next move. If it ever happens.


sincerely

Moises







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Kat

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Re: Update
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2015, 01:00:20 PM »


Moises, I think it's more of a thing as Paul said "customs to whom customs" (Rom 13:7). We follow the custom, that's just the accepted practice for society of the culture and time period in which we live. Before writing was commonplace they certainly did not have a piece of paper as proof of marriage, so they had their own way of recognizing a marriage. Different cultures had different ways they acknowledging a married couple.

I think it's actually going through those motions of satisfying whatever requirements/traditions there is, to be seen and accepted as legally married by the community you are living in. When you consider this world, that does not know God, then you really are just satisfying traditions, but I guess it's done in an honorable way as much as can be.

But I do believe God, who is actually the great designer of what civilization has been down through the ages and is now, recognizes the marriage rituals. Just my thoughts.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Update
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2015, 03:43:47 PM »

I'm not trying to change the subject, but as I was reading I thought, "unconditional love". And then I think, well, is God's love truly unconditional? It's conditioned on who He is, not who we are. But do we love unconditionally? Or is that a word and a concept not in the Bible? We love with patience, kindness, we don't keep count of wrongs, and love never fails. But does that convey unconditional? Or are we, am I, using the wrong word? What do you all think?

Hi Rose,

I just wanted to bring to remembrance that our English uses one word to describe, what is essentially two different words in the greek , the concept of love.

Greek separates the love God has for the world, those who sin as a way of life, the enemies of Christ, and the love that God has for those in Christ.

Agape verses Phileo. I think a lot of people lose sight of this when they talk about love, loving your enemies, etc...

As ray said, you're not going to hug the terrorist who cut peoples head's off and invite him over for tea just because God tells us to love our enemies. No, you love them, in the sense that you don't return evil for evil and you understand that one day they will be conformed into the image of Christ. You love them in the sense that you understand that God has concluded us all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon us all. You love him in the sense that you understand it's not of him that wills nor of him that does but of God who shows mercy. You pray for them if they are persecuting you, you heap coals of fire upon their heads, etc... but you don't PHILEO them in anyway and neither does God. You don't condone their actions or tell them what they are doing is okay. You don't deny the God who's purchased you with a price! God hates those who sin as a way of life. While God's hate may very well be different then our own unjustifiable hatred, He still nonetheless expresses His deep dislike and abhorrence at sinners. Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Ray's article on why does God love you, and his study on the different kinds of love in the bible, are very eye opening.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
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