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Mike Gagne:
Great post Dave! That's the scripture came to mind when reading above!
Does God punish those who do iniquity? Or does he teach them to do right through judgement. Isaiah 26:9 for when thy judgements are in the earth the inhabitants of the world ( including those three gay guys who got married ) will learn righteousness!!
lurquer:
I certainly agree with what you said, Dave. But if you were trying to make a further point, I guess I just didn't see it.
I guess my point was that (philosophical) ideas have (physical) consequences. Failure to address sin and error when it is well known leads to the cancer growing--eventually towards a societal fatal outcome. There are national, collective consequences also that those who were innocent of the sin must bear...when the "land is defiled, and the land itself vomiteth out its inhabitants". To fail to decry wickedness, because you once engaged in it is a cop-out at best.
Leviticus 18 (KJV)
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.
6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the Lord.
7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.
Dave in Tenn:
I'm not denying that the ones Paul referred to once 'walked in iniquity'. Nor am I suggesting that he is encouraging them to 'cop-out'. I see a picture of three guys who will one day be in the spiritual image of Sons. It would be better for them had they not done what they did. But since they did, what has to happen before they too are "washed...sanctified...justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God."
Scripture says a lot more about sin than "don't do it".
acomplishedartis:
Here is a question that might has to do with the main intention of this thread.
If I could only marriage legally in Gods eyes through the government paper...
Why does my spiritual well being and integrity has to depend on my availability for the carnal government and their papers?
I agree that A ceremony and vow between one man and one woman makes a marriage (Gen 5:2, Matthew 9:4)
Paul says, Let your Yes be Yes and Your No be No. (Yes, I have read Rays paper on marriage)
We ought to obey God before man.
I am okay with following all rational and respectful laws that governments make (traffic laws, respecting the things of others and things like that). I am just very suspicious about how this signing of random "official" papers can be able to mess up with my spiritual life. I don't want to be a fornicator.
You know, the easiest thing to do is to stop thinking about it, pay 35 dollars and sign the "official" paper, and I would also save my self all this time of posting and defending my point.
But sometimes looking for the truth becomes not the 'easiest way to go'. And I could make a big list of hypothetical situations where the signing of this "official" paper would be impossible to sign, inconvenient to sign, suspicious to sign, and meaningless to sign.
I somewhat understand how societies work and how civilizations need this kind of organization, etc, etc. I am not trying to change the worlds rules, I am just concerned about my own personal way to deal with this matters as a truth seeker.
sincerely
Moises
ps. I am open for rational discussion and reconsider my personal suspicious on the matter.
If you don't agree with me,
please be nice.
indianabob:
Hi Friend Moises,
Not sure that I have anything to add that has not been mentioned.
In my humble view, God looks upon the heart of those who wish to spend their lives together in full commitment to one another. That is what is important. 8)
Complying with the conventions of the culture in which one lives can be important so that the young couple and their children will have a peaceful, respected existence among the other members of that culture.
However, as far as God's judgment is concerned, it is the intent of the heart that determines guilt or innocence, approval or disapproval.
If a man and a woman meet on a deserted island, not having any established formal culture and decide to make a family together for the rest of their lives that is enough. Signing their names and writing a promise on a parchment or on the trunk of a tree on that island doesn't change the validity of their commitment.
If then a ship arrives to rescue them it would be helpful to tell all aboard the ship that they are a family and have a lifelong commitment. To my mind there would be no necessity to formalize their relationship by having a pastor of a religious denomination pronounce them married in the eyes of God. The act of living together in a committed loving relationship has already established their situation. What can be added?
Just my view, Indianabob
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