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Jesus unveils Our Father

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lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: cheekie3 on March 08, 2015, 04:44:26 AM ---All -

I keep wondering about the time when Our Father through Wisdom Birthed Christ and then gave Jesus All that He had.

Was it an instant download and then Jesus had All that Our Father had.

Or was it a process over a very long period of time.

How did Jesus learn and understand about The Majesty and Glory of Our Father.

Our Father must have taught Jesus about Righteousness and the Fruit of His Spirit - and the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Could Jesus have grasped and understood the differences between Good and Evil without experiencing these Himself.

We learn and experience Good and Evil.

We who are now dragged by Our Father to the knowledge of The Truth, then learn and experience the Called and The Chosen Elect.

Jesus then starts to Unveil or Unfold Our Father to us, as our hearts desire is to get to know Our Heavenly Father more and more - and to continually please Him.

Yet all this is not directly with Our Father but always through Jesus.

What do Our Father and Our Lord Jesus Christ now do - as they are both Perfect.

They Both continuously pour out their Loving Kindness upon Humanity - on both the Wicked and the Righteous (in Christ) - yet most of Humanity remain in total darkness for most of their alloted life experience - although all of us have known and seen Evil upon us Framed and Restricted - with the majority of us unaware that this is being Sovereignly Managed by Our Saviour.

When we will All be like Jesus Christ - will we be in the Bosom of Our Father; and see Our Father as He Truly is in His Glory and Majesty and still Live - like Jesus does now.

George.

--- End quote ---

Hi George,

Why do you think Christ came forth after wisdom? Christ is God and the God of the old testament is Christ. There is only one God, there is none beside Him.

How do you know Jesus Christ is not the God, there is only one God, who experienced the good and evil which then, after having travailed in agony to bring forth wisdom, created this creation?

Colossians 1:16-18 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Its possible we may never see the Father but again I cannot say with certainty on that. Its definitely something ray talked about a few times.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

To the rest:

I am not of the opinion that Christ learned obedience while in His stay on earth. He is the God of the universe and through Him came all things. They are sustained by Him. I find it unlikely that He had as of yet not been obedient to His Father. In Fact, if Christ were learning obedience to His Father, this would have been visible during His ministry but as Dennis pointed out, He was without sin though tempted in all manners. We also have this witness that He became obedient even unto death. That means all the way to the end He was obedient. I don't see it as meaning He was learning during this time or that prior to this point he was NOT obedient.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

1 Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

He is, was, and will be, the express image of His Father. I just can't see Him as not having been obedient or even perfect until after His physical death. In fact, I don't even think Hebrews is saying that. We need two witnesses to establish doctrine. Notice Hebrews 9:10 starts with... "WE SEE..." Is this not a case of the relative verse absolute? In OUR EYES we see Him as having been made perfect in the aspect of our salvation? Furthermore, perhaps this has nothing to do with Him being obedient to the Father or perfect God but rather perfect in the aspect of being a captain for salvation? As Hebrews 4:15 makes the point, we have a high priest who can fully sympathize with all of our weaknesses and suffering as He too was tempted and suffered. A perfect author and finisher of our faith!

God bless,
Alex

Kat:

When you think about it, when were the Father and Son not "one"? They have always been united as one. When the Son "came forth,' He and the Father were not like we think of two separate persons.

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Mat 11:27 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one fully knows the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows the Father except the Son and the person to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

When Christ spoke about hearing the Father, Their communication did not require literal speaking, as we do. The Father did not have to actually speak and explain things to Christ, They have the same mind, it is the Father that dwells in Him that spoke through Him.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


--- Quote from: cheekie3 on March 08, 2015, 04:44:26 AM ---When we will All be like Jesus Christ - will we be in the Bosom of Our Father; and see Our Father as He Truly is in His Glory and Majesty and still Live - like Jesus does now.
--- End quote ---

Well George, this is what Jesus said to that.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
v. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


--- Quote from: indianabob on March 08, 2015, 12:14:50 PM ---Perhaps this will explain a little.

Hebrews 5:8
7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,…


Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

So then Jesus apparently "became" obedient through a series of trials in his flesh. Trials that he had not experienced before and that perhaps were provided to demonstrate to the human race that Father God understands that we need a sign to convict us, especially prior to our conversion.
--- End quote ---

Bob, even as God the Son through the experience of coming in the flesh, though humbling as it was, now He understand us "perfectly" having actually gone through it all Himself.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. Instead, we have one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet he never sinned.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

cheekie3:
Alex -

I agree with All the Scriptural Witnesses you have quoted.

I am not sure about Wisdom and Jesus Christ - and I believe Ray taught in one or two of his teachings that 'Wisdom' spoke in the First Person - meaning it was Jesus Christ, the God of The Old Testament; and on another teaching Ray said something on the lines that 'Wisdom' is more than that (Jesus Christ).

The Enigma of God - our Father and Jesus Christ who are One - is something not easily understood; and I believe as Ray taught, that 'Wisdom' being the 'Principle Thing' is the key to all this - and I do not fully understand the Enigma that is Our God and Saviour.

I believe Ray taught that The Father had to first have the 'Wisdom' to bring His Creation into Being - which included 'Birthing' Jesus Christ; or when Jesus come out from The Father (before the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth).

I do not believe Jesus' Obedience has anything to do with sin as The Scriptures state that Jesus is without sin - as I believe that Jesus' Obedience to His Father is part of the unique Oneness Jesus Has with His Father - as the One True Unified God.

God Bless.

George.

cheekie3:
Kat -

I agree with all that you have posted on this.

One of the things I was thinking of - goes back to when Ray asked I believe 'Harry' if we would ever see Our Father Face to Face - and I recollect that 'Harry' said he believed we will.

I was honing in to the fact that we are all being 'made into the image of God' - and ultimately we will all be like Jesus Christ. As Jesus Christ is the only one to see Our Heavenly Father, I was wondering that when God's Creation Plan to make us in His Image is complete - would we, then being like Jesus - actually see Our Father Face to Face.

Then again, as The Father and The Son are One - and all we know is always through Jesus Christ - we may see Jesus Face to Face but not Our Father.

Love, Peace and Joy to All.

George.

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: cheekie3 on March 08, 2015, 02:17:06 PM ---Alex -

I agree with All the Scriptural Witnesses you have quoted.

I am not sure about Wisdom and Jesus Christ - and I believe Ray taught in one or two of his teachings that 'Wisdom' spoke in the First Person - meaning it was Jesus Christ, the God of The Old Testament; and on another teaching Ray said something on the lines that 'Wisdom' is more than that (Jesus Christ).

The Enigma of God - our Father and Jesus Christ who are One - is something not easily understood; and I believe as Ray taught, that 'Wisdom' being the 'Principle Thing' is the key to all this - and I do not fully understand the Enigma that is Our God and Saviour.

I believe Ray taught that The Father had to first have the 'Wisdom' to bring His Creation into Being - which included 'Birthing' Jesus Christ; or when Jesus come out from The Father (before the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth).

I do not believe Jesus' Obedience has anything to do with sin as The Scriptures state that Jesus is without sin - as I believe that Jesus' Obedience to His Father is part of the unique Oneness Jesus Has with His Father - as the One True Unified God.

God Bless.

George.

--- End quote ---

Hi George,

Wisdom says:

Proverbs 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
Proverbs 8:23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.

The word for "LORD" is not Elohim. It is not the duel plural form of God but rather the name of God. Now to my understanding, this is attributed to Jesus Christ specifically (though Jesus was given His Father's very own name). If to Jesus Christ then also to His Father as everything Jesus Christ has He got from His Father.

So to my understanding, Jesus Christ possessed wisdom in the beginning which would necessitate that His Father did as well. Therefor, we cannot say that wisdom was something the Father possessed and not Jesus Christ. Likewise it follows that wisdom is not Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ whom you say is wisdom would then be talking about possessing Himself in Proverbs 8:22.

Interestingly, one of the seven spirits of God is the spirit of Wisdom (Isaiah 11:2) and Jesus Christ possess the seven spirits of God (Rev 3:1). God is spirit (John 4:24) and the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9).

Interestingly too, while in the flesh, Jesus Christ was filled with wisdom and then increased in it even more. I believe this implies he was super abounding in Wisdom.

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

These things make it difficult for me to see Jesus Christ as being the same thing as wisdom though He certainly is wisdom FOR US seeing as He is the Word of God and reveals or unfolds the Father for us:

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

I don't think ray said the Father had to first have "wisdom" to bring His creation into being but rather that GOD had to have wisdom to bring into being His creation.

Remember, Genesis says that man has become like one of US to know both good and evil. It didn't say that we became like the FATHER to know good and evil. This seems to indicate that Jesus too experienced the evil that His Father did and this statement was made long before He ever came and suffered as a man. I would think the possessing of wisdom followed this same pattern.

Here is the final statement by Ray on the audio of "Did God ever learn,"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.0.html -------------------------------------------

Before God could create us and the universe and creatures in His own likeness, He had to know how to do it. How hard was that? ‘Oh but nothing is too hard for God.’ There is nothing 'too hard' for God. Too hard, that means impossible, but how close to that does it come? Are things very very hard for God at times? Did God ever do a honest days work? Did God ever suffer? Was God ever longsuffering? Did He have to have patience? 

He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it before the creation came, the master plan and the wisdom to do it. How did He get that wisdom? He birthed it! Under the travail and pain and agony, that He passed on to women to experience a minute little insignificant part of what it is like to bring about children that are going to be in the image of God. 

He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, ‘I don’t see it.’ I don’t care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So don’t think that God hasn’t done anything for us. 

God has never suffered? God has never had to work hard? God has never had to go long periods of time and not get what it is He wanted? Don’t think that way anymore. You have a Father in heaven that can identify with everything you are.

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Feel free to agree or disagree.

God bless,
Alex

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