A thought puzzle for eager minds

[indianabob]

A thought puzzle for minds eager to find stimulation.
I-bob
= = =

Nothing Can Move in Spacetime
Louis Savain,

General Relativity and Time Travel

There is a common thread that weaves itself around time travel theories and their authors' arguments. It is Einstein's theory of relativity and, in particular, the general theory of relativity. For close to a hundred years relativists have claimed that there is a time dimension (i.e., a degree of freedom on a par with the other three spatial dimensions) and that gravity is due to bodies following their geodesics in curved spacetime. In other words, relativists believe in time travel in one direction, toward the future. They continue to teach the same fallacy in countless books, articles, peer-reviewed papers and physics classes around the globe at this very moment. They do it even in the face of irrefutable arguments that show that motion in spacetime is logically impossible. Spacetime is frozen from the infinite past to the infinite future by definition.

Of course, when this is pointed out to them, the usual response is either outright denial or a mountain of obfuscation. When push comes to shove they will insist that physicists mean something different when they speak of motion in spacetime. Never mind that motion has always been defined as a change in position in a coordinate system. This definition of motion has not changed in millennia.

Simple Proof that Nothing Can Move in Spacetime

Why is motion in spacetime impossible? It has to do with the definitions of space and time and the equation of velocity v = dx/dt. What the equation is saying is that, if an object moves over any distance d x, there is an elapsed time d t. Since time is defined in physics as a parameter for denoting change (evolution), the equation for velocity along the time axis must be given as v = dt/dt which is self-referential. The self-reference comes from having to divide dt by itself. dt/dt always equals 1 because the units cancel out. This is of course meaningless as far as velocity is concerned.

To emphasize, it is logically  impossible for the t coordinate of an object to change because such a change is self-referential. Et voilà! It is that simple. No time travel, no motion in spacetime, no spacetime and no time dimension. They are all abstract mathematical constructs without any counterpart in nature.

[lilitalienboi16]

A thought puzzle for minds eager to find stimulation.
I-bob
= = =

Nothing Can Move in Spacetime
Louis Savain,

General Relativity and Time Travel

There is a common thread that weaves itself around time travel theories and their authors' arguments. It is Einstein's theory of relativity and, in particular, the general theory of relativity. For close to a hundred years relativists have claimed that there is a time dimension (i.e., a degree of freedom on a par with the other three spatial dimensions) and that gravity is due to bodies following their geodesics in curved spacetime. In other words, relativists believe in time travel in one direction, toward the future. They continue to teach the same fallacy in countless books, articles, peer-reviewed papers and physics classes around the globe at this very moment. They do it even in the face of irrefutable arguments that show that motion in spacetime is logically impossible. Spacetime is frozen from the infinite past to the infinite future by definition.

Of course, when this is pointed out to them, the usual response is either outright denial or a mountain of obfuscation. When push comes to shove they will insist that physicists mean something different when they speak of motion in spacetime. Never mind that motion has always been defined as a change in position in a coordinate system. This definition of motion has not changed in millennia.

Simple Proof that Nothing Can Move in Spacetime

Why is motion in spacetime impossible? It has to do with the definitions of space and time and the equation of velocity v = dx/dt. What the equation is saying is that, if an object moves over any distance d x, there is an elapsed time d t. Since time is defined in physics as a parameter for denoting change (evolution), the equation for velocity along the time axis must be given as v = dt/dt which is self-referential. The self-reference comes from having to divide dt by itself. dt/dt always equals 1 because the units cancel out. This is of course meaningless as far as velocity is concerned.

To emphasize, it is logically  impossible for the t coordinate of an object to change because such a change is self-referential. Et voilà! It is that simple. No time travel, no motion in spacetime, no spacetime and no time dimension. They are all abstract mathematical constructs without any counterpart in nature.

If I'm understanding what I read (which I may not have), I can't help but think its a bunch of hogwash seeing as God has years and years are a measurement of time. So how can time just be a mathematical abstraction?

To quote ray:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10538.0.html ------------------------------------------------------

Psa 102:25  ...and the heavens [are] the work of Your (Comment: This is speaking of God.) hands.
v. :26  They shall perish (Comment: What? The heavens and the earth.), but You shall endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed:
v. 27 But You [art] the same, and Your years shall have no end.

Didn't we read from both of these people that when the creation is done away with that there will be no time?  When there is no sun will there be years? No? "All of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed:  But You [art] the same, and Your YEARS shall have no end." "Shall have" present progressive into the future, "no end."

Didn't J. Preston Eby say that the way to tell if the Bible is talking about something that continues, the Bible uses the phrase "no end?' I read that right at the beginning, he knows that. Here's one that says, the years of God. You say, 'well it's talking about spiritual years.' It doesn't matter, he uses the word "years, shall have no end." Who you going to believe the Bible or theologians, Christian ministers.

-------------------------------------------------------

Now perhaps I misunderstood the small snippet you provided but that's how it came out to me.

God bless,
Alex

[indianabob]

Hi Alex,

I think that the author was referring to "time travel" being a mathematical abstraction.
So then we live in time, but always in the present time. What has gone before is lost to us for all time, OTHER than in our limited memories. We cannot go back and change it. AND neither will God go back and change it or erase it to provide us with a clean conscience.
We have to depend upon the blood of Christ to cover our sins even though God can forgive them and forget them and put them far from us. Our history is still our history and we cannot pretend we did not sin or that we are somehow superior to others.

Of course God does not have a limited memory... God can recall every atom of our being and how it was/is put together and is able to resurrect us exactly as we were. (smile)

HOpe that helps, Ibob

[microlink]

I found this fellow Louis Savain intriguing after visiting his web site. I may read more and give you all my take on it, for what its worth. Many kooks out there. Is is he one. I will find out.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Alex,

I think that the author was referring to "time travel" being a mathematical abstraction.
So then we live in time, but always in the present time. What has gone before is lost to us for all time, OTHER than in our limited memories. We cannot go back and change it. AND neither will God go back and change it or erase it to provide us with a clean conscience.
We have to depend upon the blood of Christ to cover our sins even though God can forgive them and forget them and put them far from us. Our history is still our history and we cannot pretend we did not sin or that we are somehow superior to others.

Of course God does not have a limited memory... God can recall every atom of our being and how it was/is put together and is able to resurrect us exactly as we were. (smile)

HOpe that helps, Ibob

Thanks for clarifying bob!

Was there more to the article or was it just that short paragraph?

[indianabob]

Just to tickle your highly active mind Alex, here is the web site.
I have not evaluated all that is stated, but I agree in general that charlatans exist just as frequently in the field of science as they do in religion. True science in demonstrable and repeatable. Everything else is speculation...

www.rebelscience.org/Crackpots/notorious.htm

Have fun, Indiana bob

Hi Alex,

I think that the author was referring to "time travel" being a mathematical abstraction.
So then we live in time, but always in the present time. What has gone before is lost to us for all time, OTHER than in our limited memories. We cannot go back and change it. AND neither will God go back and change it or erase it to provide us with a clean conscience.
We have to depend upon the blood of Christ to cover our sins even though God can forgive them and forget them and put them far from us. Our history is still our history and we cannot pretend we did not sin or that we are somehow superior to others.

Of course God does not have a limited memory... God can recall every atom of our being and how it was/is put together and is able to resurrect us exactly as we were. (smile)

HOpe that helps, Ibob

Thanks for clarifying bob!

Was there more to the article or was it just that short paragraph?

[Rhys 🕊]

I don't understand any of this but my brain is slow. I did look up the word obfuscation though which I have never heard of before which means making the message confusing which pretty much sums up the whole thing to me.

Are we saying the movie Back To The Future was not true?

Rhys 

[microlink]

Hi all,

Time travel is not a dimension for God. He created time. When Jesus was resurrected He said to Mary, do not touch Me, I have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven. Shortly thereafter He did. He went defying all physical laws including the speed of light.

Joe

[indianabob]

Great thought Rhys, I really liked the movie and the Corvette jumping through the time portal just short of crashing into a brick wall. (smile)
Going back in time to FIX stuff is an interesting concept, but we who believe have come to understand that we will be able to fix past offenses in another way; through the resurrection of all provided by our loving creator.
Indianabob

I don't understand any of this but my brain is slow. I did look up the word obfuscation though which I have never heard of before which means making the message confusing which pretty much sums up the whole thing to me.

Are we saying the movie Back To The Future was not true?

Rhys 

[indianabob]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for the reply. It got me wondering. Did Jesus have to exceed the speed of light in order to ascend to the Father? Of course it could be instantaneous, but what actually happened?
I mean how far is it to where the Father is/was? Is it a location some great distance or space of time from where Jesus was on the earth? Isn't Father God everywhere present?
I would like to hear some comments on this thought if anyone is interested.
Indianabob

Hi all,

Time travel is not a dimension for God. He created time. When Jesus was resurrected He said to Mary, do not touch Me, I have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven. Shortly thereafter He did. He went defying all physical laws including the speed of light.

Joe

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for the reply. It got me wondering. Did Jesus have to exceed the speed of light in order to ascend to the Father? Of course it could be instantaneous, but what actually happened?
I mean how far is it to where the Father is/was? Is it a location some great distance or space of time from where Jesus was on the earth? Isn't Father God everywhere present?
I would like to hear some comments on this thought if anyone is interested.
Indianabob

Hi all,

Time travel is not a dimension for God. He created time. When Jesus was resurrected He said to Mary, do not touch Me, I have not yet ascended to my Father in Heaven. Shortly thereafter He did. He went defying all physical laws including the speed of light.

Joe

Hi Bob,

I'm just going to put together some scriptures about God.

Edit: Expanded the list with many more verses and ideas. More to come, God willing.

God is spirit (John 4:24) .
He is the Father of spirits (Hebrew 12:9).
The Heavens are His throne and earth is His footstool ( Isaiah 66:1, Acts 7:49).
Not even the heavens of the heavens can contain Him (2 Chron 2:6, 6:18, 1 Kings 8:27).
He is not far from any of us for in Him we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).
He is before all things (Col. 1:17).
Him do all things have their cohesion, consist, are held together (Col. 1:16-17, Eph 4:6, Romans 11:36).
He is Invisible (Col 1:15, 1 Tim 1:17, Hebrews 11:27, II Cor. 4:4).
He is the King of all Ages, Immortal (1 Tim 1:17, 1 Tim 1:16).
He is the God of the Eons/ Eonian God (Psalm 90:2, Jeremiah 10:10).
He dwells in a light no man can approach (1 Tim 1:16).
Seeing Jesus is Seeing the Father (John 14:9).
He is the Savior God (Jude 1:25, Luke 1:47, Zeph 3:17, Isaiah 45:21).
No one has ever heard or seen the Father (John 5:37, 1 John 4:12, John 1:18).
Our God is One God (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29, Romans 3:30, Eph. 4:6, 1 Cor. 8:6, James 2:19, Malachi 2:10, Zech 14:9.... ).
There is none like Him (Exodus 8:10, 1 Chron. 17:20, Psalm 86:8, Isaiah 46:9, Isaiah 45:5, 21).
There is no God beside Him(John 17:3, Deut. 4:39, 1 Chron. 17:20, Deut. 4:35, Isaiah 46:9, Isaiah 45:5, Deut. 32:39, 1 Sam 2:2)."
He has no equal (Isaiah 40:25, Jeremiah 49:19, 1 Sam 2:2).
He is the God of Mercy and all comforts ( 2 Cor. 1:3).
God is not a man (I Sam. 15:29, Numbers 23:19)
God does not lie (Titus 1:2, Numbers 23:19, Hebrews 6:18)
God is Perfect (Mat. 5:48, Gen 17:1, 2 Sam 22:31, Deut 32:4)
God does not change (Malachi 3:6)
God does no wrong (Deut 32:4, James 1:17, Job 34:10)
Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Mat. 16:16, Matthew 8:29, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 16:16, Matthew 26:62-64, Matthew 27:43, Matthew 27:54, Mark 1:1, Mark 3:11, Mark 5:7, Mark 15:39, Luke 1:32, 35, Luke 4:41, Luke 8:28, John 1:34, John 19:7, John 20:31, Romans 1:3-4, 1 Cor 1:9, 2 Cor 1:19, Gal 2:20, Gal 4:4, Eph 4:13, Hebrews 4:14, Hebrews 6:6, 1 John 3:8, John 3:16 )
Jesus came forth out of the Father (John 8:42, 1 Cor 3:23, John 13:3, John 16:27-28).
Jesus is God's creative original (Rev. 3:14)
Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14, Rev 19:13)
The Word of God (Jesus) is God (John 1:1, John 14:10,  ).
Jesus is God (Heb. 1:8, 9, Psalm 45:6-7, John 8:58, John 17:5, Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 7:14, John 5:18, Philippians 2:6, Rev 1:8, John 20:28, John 1:18).
Jesus has always been the Priest of the Most High God (Heb 3:1  Heb 5:10  Psalm 110:4  Gen 14:18).
Jesus Christ is the expressed Image of God (Col. 1: 14, Hebrews 1:3).
Head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3).
Jesus and the Father are One (John 10:30, John 17:21) .
The Father is the God of Jesus (Eph 1:17, Col. 1:3, I Pet. 1:3).
God subjects all to Jesus (1 Cor. 15:28).
God is love (1 John 4:7, 2 Corinthians 13:11).


Okay So i've amassed quite a few scriptures here and I want to keep adding to this list which I will do in a little.

So how far is it to where the Father is? Not far all. He is everywhere. He is spirit. He is so large that nothing can contain Him, He can't be brought down to size so He brought forth the Son so that we could know Him. I'm not completely sure what Jesus meant by "ascending" to His Father seeing as we all live and move and have our being Him, even Jesus did whiledepar He was present with us. Christ was also raised with a spiritual body and possessed Immortality now. Perhaps it meant that HE was not yet "Restored to His Former glory" that He had with His Father before the world began? Perhaps that is what ascension meant because I just don't see it as meaning that He had to travel to some distant place at the speed of light to literally sit at the right hand of some literal throne. No, God is spirit.

Well maybe my post gave your more questions than answers bob so my apologies if that's the case. Like I said, I will return to expand this list of scripture about God in the future.

God bless,
Alex

[Joel]

The way I see it, it has a lot to do with being in the very presence of God.
In the same way that God chose to let his presence be known in the temple Holy of Holies, the ark of the covenant, the cloud by day, and the fire by night,  etcetera.
Jesus Christ is the DOOR, our door to that realm that is guarded and restricted. John 10:7-9.

Satan, evil, and all wickedness are the most furthest away of all. (darkness)

Joel

[lilitalienboi16]

I expanded the list and edited my original post. The list is significantly larger with much more scripture. Hopefully someone find it helpful. I'll keep adding to it by the grace of God.