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You can’t blame God for everything !
rick:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on March 21, 2015, 12:37:35 AM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on March 20, 2015, 11:08:49 PM ---So, I been thinking about not having free will and as a result I can no longer believe that God can be blamed for everything.
This may sound like a contradiction but I believe that no living entity has free will, Ray has done a great jog of pointing that out and one would need to be blind not to see that or understand it.
Maybe I misunderstood all along an I’m now getting it but my point is , sure God sends causes in our life to have us move in one direction or another, but when one commits or is involved in something that is an abomination to God then God has nothing to do with it, His hands are clean concerning ones actions so to speak.
Take these terrorist for instance that decapitate their victims, can one honestly believe that was Gods intention ? Doing such horrific things such as the likes of can only be attributed to the wickedness of man.
Sure, God takes responsibility for all things because He is the creator but not the perpetrator of such things or the author thereof.
I don’t believe God intended for any man to rape a women or little child but I do believe God did have foreknowledge of such things from the beginning.
I believe my understanding is in line with Ray’s teachings as to who the guilty culprit is .
You can’t blame God for everything ! >:(
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
God uses the circumstances in our lives (for example: where you're born and a plethora of unseen conditions) as well as our own biology (created subject to vanity [that is, moral futility] by reason of our WEAK HEARTS which was His design through wisdom) to bring us to places in our lives where we will either sin or be righteous. The only reason any of us do not commit evil acts or atrocities such as the beheadings of relatively innocent people is because God has kept us from doing such things. In our flesh dwells no good thing (Rom 7:18).
Rom. 8:20-22 "For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW"
VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].
One of the definitions of vanity is "wickedness." Subject to wickedness.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately weak: who can know it?
Mat. 15:19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus.
As Isaiah stated:
Isaiah 45:6-7 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS."
Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER [Satan] TO DESTROY"
Now God tempts no man directly (James 1:13), you are absolutely correct if that is your thought, but God doesn't have to tempt us directly because we are created so spiritually weak that we all volunteer to sin as soon as we get the opportunity to. However, if it weren't for Him, we would not be in this position in the first place. So yes, He is responsible even of the men who behead heads off others. He is also the one that purposed this.
You have to remember that God has a will ("LET MY PEOPLE GO") and a plan for accomplishing His will ("So the Lord HARDENED Pharoe's heart so that he would not let His people go"). These two things, His will and His plan/purpose can often seem to contradict but therein lies part of that trust in God that He knows the absolute best way for accomplishing His will. As paul says' "WHO ARE YOU OH MAN THAT RESPONDS TO GOD?"
Romans 9:13-23
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will [ PURPOSE / PLAN/ INTENTION ]? ANSWER: NO ONE!
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
We are first MARRED in the hand's of the potter before he makes us new. Will you deny God's complete and total sovereignty over us as a potter has over clay?
Jeremiah 18:3-6
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
So it is a matter of the heart, which again was by law of God's will, to bring about that will (salvation of all mankind, children in His image, sons and daughters).
Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
So who is it that gives this new heart? Who gives the heart that would "fear me, and keep all my commandments always...?" God of course.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
God knows full well the ramifications of putting spiritually weak man in position's and circumstances where without His divine influence he will succomb to his own weaknesses. He does this everyday though.
Jeremiah 24:7
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.
So we obey God because He has done these things for us and to those who behead others he has not shown mercy upon them but rather hardened their hearts because it is apart of his plan. They are fitted for destruction but He is the potter and He has this right. We are but clay.
Phil. 2:13 "For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure."
James. 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
Prov. 20:24 "Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?"
Without God, had we been born in the same family as those men and in the same place, experienced what they experienced, we would be doing exactly what they are doing. It is all of God who shows mercy.
Therefor I believe it IS God's plan (and not His will) that those terrorists (and rapists) behead (rape) and do such horrific things however He is not the one making them do it and He certainly takes absolutely no pleasure in the suffering it causes. It is also not His desire as in His good pleasure that people rape/behead but we have to remember that His will and plan for accomplishing that will (His good pleasure) can almost seem (but are not) like a contradiction on the surface. He planned this all. God makes evil and He can keep us, or not keep us, from it.
Ecc 1:13 "It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it"
To quote from ray on all this going on in the middle east since I'm assuming that's where your thoughts on the beheadings are coming from (ISIS):
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
“I [God] will consume them by the sword…” (Jer. 14:12).
“I [God] will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their father have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them” (Jer. 9:16).
WAR :
“The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is His name” (Ex. 15:3).
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat upon Him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he does judge and make war” (Rev. 19:11).
DESTRUCTION :
“Howl! Ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty” (Isa. 13:6).
“Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come” (Joel 1:15).
SLAUGHTER :
“And the Lord discomfited them before Israel; and slew them with a great slaughter…” (Joshua 10:10).
“For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter” ( Isa. 34:2).
EVIL :
“Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?” (Lam. 3:38).
“I will raise up evil against you out of your own house…” (II Sam. 12:11).
“…I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction” (Jer. 4:6).
“…Hear, O earth; behold, I will bring evil upon this people…” (Jer. 6:19).
“…Thus says the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you…” (Jer. 18:11).
…so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land…” (Josh. 23:15)
“What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil?” (Job 2:10).
“…shall thee be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?” (Amos 3:6).
I don't like the term "clean hands" as its not scriptural and very ambiguous in my opinion.
I like to think of this verse when I think of evil happening and how God uses it:
Genesis 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Evil is necessary part of God's plan for SAVING humanity.
Feel free to agree or disagree.
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
Your closing remark ( feel free to agree or disagree ) well, I cannot disagree with scripture. Everything you said is true and I will not dispute all that you had said.
I understand how God has made us and why we do the dumb things we do from time to time and on an every day basis too.
I believe this is a good subject to talk about an maybe very helpful to anther who maybe new to the forum.
As I read Ray’s papers and get into Ray’s e-mails I must say Ray as far as I’m concern was a very highly educated man who was greatly blessed with a great deal of wisdom and to be honest with you Alex and I cannot prove this but I venture to say when one reads Ray’s papers they are reading the papers that were written by one of God’s elect .
The things Ray talks about are very deep and I do not want to take for granted that which is surface knowledge because his teachings go so much deeper.
I don’t want to reiterate everything again but if you have time to read my reply to Ricky’s response you’ll get a better understanding of how I’m understanding these things Ray spoke about concerning our choices that we make, ( we ) not God.
John from Kentucky:
I do not blame God for anything.
I do hold God responsible for everything, both Good and Evil.
After all, the Scriptures say God created Evil, which makes sense since the Scriptures say God created everything that is.
The first two chapters of Job teaches us much about this.
Job had seven sons and three daughters. They died when a great wind destroyed the house they were in. The wind came from Satan who is the god of this world and the prince of the power of the air.
But Job did not blame the wind or Satan for the death of his children.
Job knew God was responsible.
Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the LORD. Job 1:21
Was Job right in what he said? In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. Job 1:22
Later Satan took Job's health since God has given Satan such power.
Again, Job did not blame Satan.
...What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips. Job 2:10
Everything we have or will have or hope to have, comes from God. He gives, He takes. From Him comes good and evil. He is the Almighty, Sovereign God. He does what He pleases. Shall the thing created say to the Creator, what are you doing? Much less blame Him, or accuse Him of wrong?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on March 22, 2015, 09:11:18 PM ---I do not blame God for anything.
I do hold God responsible for everything, both Good and Evil.
After all, the Scriptures say God created Evil, which makes sense since the Scriptures say God created everything that is.
The first two chapters of Job teaches us much about this.
Job had seven sons and three daughters. They died when a great wind destroyed the house they were in. The wind came from Satan who is the god of this world and the prince of the power of the air.
But Job did not blame the wind or Satan for the death of his children.
Job knew God was responsible.
Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the LORD. Job 1:21
Was Job right in what he said? In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. Job 1:22
Later Satan took Job's health since God has given Satan such power.
Again, Job did not blame Satan.
...What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips. Job 2:10
Everything we have or will have or hope to have, comes from God. He gives, He takes. From Him comes good and evil. He is the Almighty, Sovereign God. He does what He pleases. Shall the thing created say to the Creator, what are you doing? Much less blame Him, or accuse Him of wrong?
--- End quote ---
Hi John,
Interestingly, Ray made this statement about Satan and the title "god of this world."
---------------------------------------------------------------- http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
Somebody ask me if "the god of this world" could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived.
2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Now I know why you made the statement you made about satan because he did show Christ all the kingdoms of the world and offered them up as a gift to Christ and he could only do this if he had some tremendous power and authority over this world.
Do you know if there is any verse (other than Corinthians which appears ambiguous and to which ray stated leaned more towards it being a reference to God) that references satan as "god" and of "this world?"
God bless,
Alex
John from Kentucky:
Hi Alex,
I don't consider 2Cor 4:4 ambiguous. It clearly states Satan is the god (small g) of this world. Of course the One God is the big G (God) over everything.
As the Scriptures say, Satan tempted Jesus with giving Him all the power and glory of the world. If Satan were not the god of this world, then the temptation wouldn't have meant much. How could Satan have offered Jesus the world if he could not have delivered?
There is also the Scripture that says we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with evil spirits in high places. These evil spirits (Satan being the principal mean little spud) do have power over many things. They will be removed from their positions when Jesus returns, but until then, they go about their evil ways. Just consider the perverse things they are causing to occur in the Middle East at the present time. Satan is the prince of the power of the air and is the evil influence behind the workings of evil men.
But he (Satan) knows his time is almost up, and that knowledge makes him very angry because he knows the power of the true God.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on March 22, 2015, 11:09:38 PM ---Hi Alex,
I don't consider 2Cor 4:4 ambiguous. It clearly states Satan is the god (small g) of this world. Of course the One God is the big G (God) over everything.
As the Scriptures say, Satan tempted Jesus with giving Him all the power and glory of the world. If Satan were not the god of this world, then the temptation wouldn't have meant much. How could Satan have offered Jesus the world if he could not have delivered?
There is also the Scripture that says we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with evil spirits in high places. These evil spirits (Satan being the principal mean little spud) do have power over many things. They will be removed from their positions when Jesus returns, but until then, they go about their evil ways. Just consider the perverse things they are causing to occur in the Middle East at the present time. Satan is the prince of the power of the air and is the evil influence behind the workings of evil men.
But he (Satan) knows his time is almost up, and that knowledge makes him very angry because he knows the power of the true God.
--- End quote ---
All that is fine and I agree with most of it (though I can't see how having power in certain aspects of the creation suddenly makes him the "god of this world" ) but my issue is that of the small "g." Isn't that something purely done by the translators and not something present in the original greek? I looked up the word through the interlinear and it uses the same word for "god" and "God." There really is no distinction between the two words. I think the translators were blinded by their preconceived notions of God which influenced them to translate this verse improperly. It wouldn't be the first time poor understanding has influenced translation.
Furthermore, this would then make it satan who blinds but as ray pointed out, and I agree, God is the one who blinds. Satan deceives people. He is the subtle serpent. He deceived eve in the garden. I don't know of a scripture that says satan can't blind but I also don't know one that says he does. I just don't think 2 Cor 4:4 is saying that.
God bless,
Alex
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