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Tribulation?

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octoberose:
Could you tell me where to find Ray's discussion of the tribulation - and his explanation that there are many tribulations and not just one great tribulation? I know he teaches that, I'm just not sure of the verses he uses.  And along with that,  the antichrist and the prophet? Thank-you. 

Kat:
Here is where Ray discusses these things.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1887.0.html -----

Dear oj:

There is no such thing as "the Antichrist" or "THE antichrist." There is no such boogeyman in Scripture.  Check your Bible. This is just another Christian fable as "THE great tribulation."  You'll not find it in the Scriptures either.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm --------------------

Look at the first time "judgments" is used in the New Testament:

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out!"  (Rom. 11:33).

"Judgments" from God are wonderful things. Too bad we don't appreciate them.

And notice what John tells us in Revelation:

"And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments"    (Rev. 16:7).

It is not by escaping tribulation that we enter God's Kingdom (as in the unscriptural rapture theory), but by going "through much tribulation."

The phrase "The great tribulation" is used hundreds of thousands of times by the Church, and yet (just as there is no such thing as "THE antichrist") there is no such phrase in the Bible as "The great tribulation." Oh there is tribulation and great tribulation alright, but not just one called "The" tribulation.
v

"Immediately after [does everyone understand the difference between 'before' and 'after?'] ...immediately after the tribulation of those days.... He  [Jesus] shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet [I Cor. 15:52], and they shall gather together His elect [for the first time, I might also add] from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29 & 31).

One other major point: Clearly this verse and others show that Christ returns "after the tribulation of those days." "But in those days, after the tribulation... shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His Elect..." (Mark 13:24 & 27).   

And Jesus is said to come in wrath:

"...hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come..." (Rev. 6:16-17)

"And the seventh angel sounded... [the seventh trump is the last trump, I Cor. 15:52] ...and Thy wrath is come..." (Rev. 11:18)

The days of "great tribulation" end at Christ's presence, and the day of "His wrath" begins at His presence. They are two separate and different events, and different judgments on different people for different purposes. If you have not seen or do not understand the absolute differences in Scripture between tribulation and affliction versus wrath and indignation, then be sure to read my ten-page section dealing with it in detail, in my paper "Exposing the Secret Rapture Theory."

Tribulation is almost exclusively administered to God's people.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2160.0 --------

Dear Bonnie:

Contrary to all Christen doctrine of prophecy, there is no such thing as "THE" great tribulation. Great tribulation is, will be, and always was on God's chosen people. Paul tells us that it is through great tribulation and trial and suffering that we must enter the Kingdom of God.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=14488.0 --------

hello Ray:
 
Below is a statement from your “Lake of Fire” series, part D4. I’m a little confused as to what you are trying to point out to the readers. Are you speaking of just the one tribulation, or is there more than one? At least three other bibles that speak of the great tribulation/affliction. Could you please explain?
 
The phrase "The great tribulation" is used hundreds of thousands of times by the Church, and yet (just as there is no such thing as "THE antichrist") there is no such phrase in the Bible as "The great tribulation." Oh there is tribulation and great tribulation all right, but not just one called "The" tribulation. Here how the unscriptural "Secret Rapture to Heaven" theory is taught:
 
Rev 7:14 And I have declared to him: "My lord, you are aware.And he said to me, "These are those coming out of the great affliction. And they rinse their robes, and they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin."(CLV)
Rev 7:14  And I at once said to him—My lord! thou, knowest! And he said unto me—These, are they who come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb; (Rotherham)
Rev 7:14  And I say unto him, my lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (ASV).
 
Thanks,
Frank
 
Dear Frank:

Actually, there is no phrase: "THE great tribulation" in the King James which is the Bible used by most of the world throughout the last four hundred years.  Although as you show, it could be argued that in Rev. 7:14 reference is made to [the] great tribulation at that particular time.  My point is contained in my sentence that you quote: "Oh there is tribulation and great tribulation alright, but not just ONE called 'The' tribulation.

In fact, I go through every single use of the word "tribulation" in the entire Bible, and it should be evident to everyone that these dozen references are not speaking of the same "one" tribulation, but many tribulations on many different people at many different times in history.  However, virtually all of these tribulations mentioned in Scripture are on God's elect, and that is what I cover in this study on tribulation. You ask if I am speaking of "just the one tribulation, or is there more than one?"  Yes, of course there is more than one.  How can God's elect go through some tribulation people termed "THE great tribulation," when God's elect live all through the ages, and not just during one specific period of time in which there is to be found, "THE great tribulation?"

The phrase "great tribulation" is found only three times in Scripture:  Matt. 24:21, and in Rev. 2:22 and 7:14. Look at the two in Revelation:  Does the "great tribulation" Rev. 2:22 have anything in common with the "great tribulation" of Rev. 7:14?  No, of course not.  Notice for example, that those who do not have the doctrine of Jezebel will be spared these burdens spoken of in verse 24.  I hope this helps you understand better what I was teaching.

God be with you,
Ray

Here are the verses Ray referred to and the part of Revelation 2.

Mat 24:21  for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 2:18  And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, He who has His eyes like a flame of fire and His feet like burnished metal, says these things:
v. 19  I know your works and love and service and faith and your patience, and your works; and the last to be more than the first.
v. 20  But I have a few things against you because you allow that woman Jezebel to teach, she saying herself to be a prophetess, and to cause My servants to go astray, and to commit fornication, and to eat idol-sacrifices.
v. 21  And I gave her time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent.
v. 22  Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent of their deeds.
v. 23  And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.
v. 24  But to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, and who have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak, I will put on you no other burden.
v. 25  But that which you have, hold fast until I come.
v. 26  And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
v. 27  And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.
v. 28  And I will give him the Morning Star.
v. 29  He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

octoberose:
So, Matthew 24:21 is referring to what? I am really dense when it comes to end time things- I always have been. God just hasn't given me this to see as easily as some other things.
 I understand the elect will change in a twinkling . They will be with Jesus for 1000 years (weather that is figurative or literal I do not know). The world will be judged in a lake of fire (God is fire) and will be redeemed.
 But, I still don't really understand this. Back to the Lake of Fire series I guess.
 (Thx Kat, I knew you'd help.  ;) )

Kat:

Well in Matt 24 if you will notice at the beginning of that chapter Jesus was speaking of the destruction of the Temple, then the disciples ask Christ 2 questions, I think they thought the Temple's destruction and the end of the age were one and the same thing.

Mat 24:1  As Jesus left the Temple and was walking away, his disciples came up to him to point out to him the Temple buildings.
v.2  But he told them, "You see all these things, don't you? I tell you with certainty, there isn't a single stone here that will be left standing on top of another. They will all be torn down."
v. 3  While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things take place, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

So as you read down through this chapter, it seems that Jesus first tells about the destruction of the Temple and the other things, famine, earthquakes, wars etc. that would happen throughout this age. He starts speaking in verse 4 about this age and continues down through verse 26. Then in verse 27 He begins speaking about His return all the way to the end of the chapter.

Mat 24:27  because just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

That's the way I have made sense of the chapter. So I believe that verse 24 is speaking of the destruction of the Temple and how devastating it was physically and mentally for the Jewish nation. With the end of the Temple it brought about the end of the Jewish way of life and most of the Jews that lived there, that's why Christ told them to flee away from there to the mountains. Also with it's end I believe it symbolized the completion of the end of the old covenant.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

lareli:
The Antichrist may not be scriptural but I agree with Ray..

"Everyone in religious circles is looking for the beast, OUT THERE somewhere. If we are to find the beast OUT THERE, we might question whether he was ever IN HERE? That there "is, was, and will be" a beast OUT THERE, I have no doubt. But of what great concern is that to us? The only beast we need to concern ourselves with is the beast "within," "the man of sin." Just as the many-member beast comes "up out of the sea" [of humanity], we too came up out of the sea of humanity."

The beast/antichrist that I should be concerned with is the one in me.. But that there is a beast/antichrist OUT THERE, I have little doubt.

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