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Author Topic: All from Adam and Noah?  (Read 5327 times)

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octoberose

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All from Adam and Noah?
« on: April 28, 2015, 07:28:27 PM »

Didn't we have a discussion not that long ago speculating that there are people who were not descended from Adam (so not related to Noah)?  I'm looking for it but can't put my finger on it.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2015, 09:16:05 PM »

Hi Rose,

I mentioned this idea in a post here http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16077.0.html reply #10. Kat added by citing ray's comments on the matter in reply #12.

There was another more indepth discussion about it of which I remember myself, kat, dave and another forum member engaging in the idea but the thread was either deleted or moved to private mod area because dave felt we were going into territory that ray did not cover.

Here is another place ray briefly covers this (different reply than kat's link in the other thread).

----------------------------------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12719.msg111472.html#msg111472

RAY'S COMMENT:  Chapter two does not contradict chapter one. The order in chapter one is plants, animals, and then humanity.  Is this not the order found in the geologic table?  Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve.  In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations.  Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground."  There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers.  God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land. 

The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation.  God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens."  God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them.  This obviously took years.  Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).

It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.

Chapter two does not cover the creation of plant life. That began hundreds of millions of years earlier.  What God is doing in Chapter two is He is planting a garden for the man to cultivate, farm, and harvest. The word "planted" in Gen. 2:8 is from the Hebrew meaning "to sprout." God "sprouted" newly planted trees, etc.  They were mere buds, which would require years to produce fruit to eat. What was Adam expected to eat until these trees matured?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The thread took place back in January/February of this year and I believe it was rck's thread about the "nephelem/giants" which we tried to point out was a bad translation of the phrase. You might be able to convince dave to bring the thread out of hiding so you can take a look inside it again but otherwise its gone. Well, maybe it's not gone but I can't find it anywhere.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 09:18:21 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2015, 01:42:44 AM »

There's nothing in that thread that answers the question that can't be brought out again from Ray's teaching.  No need to 'bring it back' for that.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2015, 02:04:50 AM »

Octoberrose, Ray taught that there were 'mankind' before Adam.  He taught as well that Cain's wife was 'likely' from these other peoples.  He also taught that the flood was regional and did not wipe out every living thing over the entire face of the planet.  The 'problem' with your question is that it assumes that Noah was distinctly and only descended from Adam through Seth.  Since there is no mention of who the 'mothers' were, this can't be proven (and can't be dis-proven either, I reckon).  It can't be proven as well that some of those who died from the flood might not also have been descended from Adam through Seth.  Scripture says what it says, but it doesn't tell us everything.     
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

octoberose

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2015, 04:02:14 AM »

Thank you for finding that for me. Now my question:
  One of our verses for the reconciliation of all is I Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
 We teach that the All who die in Adam is the same as the All who will Live in Christ.  So, does that not mean that all of redeemed mankind have to be 'in Adam' as in related to Adam?
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2015, 07:14:51 AM »

A more thorough 'passage' than just the one verse.  Maybe it will help.

1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:21  for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23  and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

1Co 15:21  For since through man death came, and through man there is resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be restored to life.

I don't think vs 21 and vs 22 are saying the EXACT same thing, but rather verse 21 gives the concept and vs 22 the example.

Worth remembering too, perhaps, that "Adam" means "red/earthy".  The first time the word is used is in Genesis 1:26.  I've run this usage down, and "adam"  (H120 אדם) is the primary word used for any man, men, and mankind in general.  To me, it's kind of a nickname if it's used for an individual--like naming your dog "Dog".  From usage, the "meaning of the word" is used before a "name" is ever used.

Adam was never designed to live forever in Eden.  As Ray taught, he was as carnal as we are, not some kind of "glorified" extra-shiny human being.  We die just as he did, and just as all mankind/"red" has since the beginning of us.

In this way, we are ALL related to Adam.  We are all "ADAM", in fact, if we are "mankind".  And we are.  Our ultimate father, according to every genealogy I've seen in scripture, is GOD, not Adam. 

Do we have to be physical descendants of Jesus Christ in order to be "raised from the dead"?

Only thing I can think of to add:  There are 'theories' out there that put a lot of stock into "racial lineages" and how they operate in salvation.  I never saw Ray espouse any of them.  Even in the OT, God "chose" in sovereignty according to His own counsel, and justified according to faith.   
   

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2015, 02:30:57 PM »

Thank you for finding that for me. Now my question:
  One of our verses for the reconciliation of all is I Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
 We teach that the All who die in Adam is the same as the All who will Live in Christ.  So, does that not mean that all of redeemed mankind have to be 'in Adam' as in related to Adam?

Hi Rose,

I think dave makes an excellent point. I am inclined to agree with him.

Also, if I may add, let me bring to your attention for verse 22.

Notice that it says not that "ALL IN CHRIST shall be made a live," but rather, "IN CHRIST, SHALL ALL...." in other words, THROUGH CHRIST will ALL be made alive. This includes every single creature of creation whether they were genealogically of adam or not. Lastly, remember what paul said, that God has made all nations of ONE BLOOD. So whether you are a descendant physically of adam or not doesn't change the fact that we all have the same one blood which courses through our veins.

Acts 17:25
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring [Race / Kindred].

As Dave said, The promise is NO LONGER after the FLESH. The old covenant is old, waxing away, and ready to vanish. It served its point at one time to bring about the salvation of all, to Herald the Messiah, but now as Christ put off the flesh and was raised so do we too put off the flesh. Circumcision of the flesh profits nothing. We worship God in spirit and truth.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 91 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 8
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gal 3
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Galatians 4
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
 
Galatians 6
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God [They are the Israel of God].


1 Peter 2:8-10 
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
 
God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

octoberose

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2015, 10:38:27 PM »

Thank you for the answers. I really appreciate all the time you took to  respond.
 Am I the only one that is a bit freaked out at the whole not related to Adam thing?  This is hard. It's like thinking you were related to Abraham Lincoln all your life and you find out you're  really related to John Wilkes Booth! :-[
 
 
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indianabob

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2015, 11:16:11 PM »

Thanks for all the comments.

So here then is the question that my kids and I have.

Did God create a tribe of humans all at once, both male and female, from the red earth?

Similar I suppose to creating a herd of adult Elk to graze on the hillside?

Is it important to our understanding of God's ways of carrying out his plan that there needed to be a large herd of humans from which to choose the ones that would receive the "spirit" in man that made man able to wonder where they came from and to seek an answer?

Did God need to begin with a large tribe of humans in order to find one to carry the genetic strain into the future leading to a savior of all, including those who had been in the original tribe of multiple individuals?

This idea is quite strange to me, and I'm in a serious quandary over the very thought.

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2015, 11:26:53 PM »

Thank you for the answers. I really appreciate all the time you took to  respond.
 Am I the only one that is a bit freaked out at the whole not related to Adam thing?  This is hard. It's like thinking you were related to Abraham Lincoln all your life and you find out you're  really related to John Wilkes Booth! :-[

Hi Rose,

Initially when I contemplated this idea it did seem strange but everything fits very well together. All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer). It also helps explain why the Jews were so meticulous about their genealogies, keeping them pure, and recording their history. Why they also had such disdain for the gentiles, because they could literally trace their bloodline back to God through adam and the gentiles could not. It really helps shed light on how this new covenant which was prophecized to be a stumbling block to the jews, did become such a thing. Here is Christ telling them that their flesh profits nothing, this was never about the physical but was all along about the spiritual. "I had not known sin unless the law said, 'thou shall not covet.'" I tell you verily, that whosoever looks at a woman and lusts (covets) after her, has already committed adultery in his heart."

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

From the start... it was about the heart.

Deuteronomy 6:4-6
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Matthew 22:36-40King James Version
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So we see from the start this prophecy that God is going to call the gentiles:

Deuteronomy 32:19-21
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.v
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isaiah 42:1-9
1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 11
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

These verses and many others really come into sharp focus when you finally understand adam, his place in the world, and how the jew's viewed themselves because of him.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 11:32:31 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2015, 11:45:13 PM »

Thanks for all the comments.

So here then is the question that my kids and I have.

Did God create a tribe of humans all at once, both male and female, from the red earth?

Similar I suppose to creating a herd of adult Elk to graze on the hillside?

Is it important to our understanding of God's ways of carrying out his plan that there needed to be a large herd of humans from which to choose the ones that would receive the "spirit" in man that made man able to wonder where they came from and to seek an answer?

Did God need to begin with a large tribe of humans in order to find one to carry the genetic strain into the future leading to a savior of all, including those who had been in the original tribe of multiple individuals?

This idea is quite strange to me, and I'm in a serious quandary over the very thought.

Hi Bob,

As Paul told the greeks:

Acts 17:25
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring [Race / Kindred].

All of the human race is made of that same one blood. Adam was not different in that regard.

What made Adam unique was his ability to 'till the soil.' This included dressing the garden. He was a farmer. It appears from what little we can glimpse in genesis that the majority of the human race was still only "hunters." These were the people cain interacted with outside and feared. They were also the people from which Cain took his wife from. Adam was capable of writing since he was able to write his genealogy down which Moses used to write that part of genesis with.  Writing may have been something unique that God introduced to adam and his descendants but this is purely speculation in that regard.

Jesus Is the savior of mankind and since all men share that same 'one blood,' whether you are physically and literally a descendant of Adam means nothing. The jews could not get past this and it was a source of contention and great vanity. The law is spiritual and those that worship God must worship Him in spirit and truth! Circumcision of the heart makes you apart of the Israel of God and NOT circumcision of the flesh.

Hope this helps.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 11:49:23 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

John from Kentucky

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2015, 12:08:28 AM »

Or, it could be that the creation story in Genesis is a parable, a story, an allegory, not literally true, but filled with immense spiritual truths.

Jesus didn't just start teaching in parables in the New Testament.

That would explain a snake walking on its hind legs talking to a woman and the woman talking back to him.

That would explain two trees.  One whose fruit brought death.  The other tree that brought age abiding life, and why the two dummies did not eat from that tree first.

Why the Cherubim, associated with the throne of God, guarded this tree, and a flaming sword turning every which way also guarded this tree.

Symbolism?  Maybe not literally true?  But full of deep spiritual truths as revealed by the Spirit of God.

Adam is the Hebrew name for mankind, humanity.  Eve is the mother of all living.  Symbols, not literal.


Also, remember that the Gospel was preached to Abraham---namely that in you all the nations would be blessed.  All saved.  No one left out.  Good news indeed.  Read Galatians 3:8.

Later we learn that neither Abraham or Isaac are that important.  That the One Seed is Jesus, God Almighty, Who will save all the nations.  Read Galatians 3:16.

And if Jesus is in us, then We are the heirs of the promise of salvation.  Galatians 3:29
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2015, 12:26:20 AM »



Hi Rose,

Initially when I contemplated this idea it did seem strange but everything fits very well together. All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer). It also helps explain why the Jews were so meticulous about their genealogies, keeping them pure, and recording their history. Why they also had such disdain for the gentiles, because they could literally trace their bloodline back to God through adam and the gentiles could not.

Alex, while I appreciate the rest of your post, I have an issue with this bolded bit.  If you mean they "could not" because they did not (for whatever reason) keep such records...I don't have any major issue with that.  If you mean they "could not" because they WERE NOT, then I do.  Spend some time thinking about a genealogy--any genealogy--and how they work.  They only trace back through a relatively small selection of 'family'.  In the case of the genealogies in scripture, they tend to trace back only through ONE LINE.  Even when they 'diverge' (as they do below with the three sons of Noah), they eventually peter out and return to the one line.

Here's the genealogy in Genesis up to Noah and his sons.

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2  Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3  And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4  And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5  And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6  And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7  And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8  And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9  And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10  And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11  And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12  And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13  And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14  And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15  And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16  And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17  And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:18  And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
Gen 5:19  And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:20  And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
Gen 5:21  And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22  And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23  And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Gen 5:25  And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
Gen 5:26  And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:27  And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Gen 5:28  And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Gen 5:29  And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Gen 5:30  And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:31  And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Gen 5:32  And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Among those named, there is not a single Jew yet.  And there are many NOT named.  Are they "gentiles"?  Are their descendants Gentiles?  Can not the other un-named 'begatted sons and daughters" also trace their lineage back--at least to the point where they diverged?  Who are the mothers, and what is THEIR lineage?  We just don't know.  CAIN apparently took a wife from someone outside his lineage.

The same apples to the other "updated" genealogies. 

Here's what immediately follows this "genealogy". 

Gen 6:1  And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2  That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

So Cain was not alone in going outside the "family" for mates.

And so far, even Abraham hasn't arrived.

Trace your own roots back 14 generations, if you can.  You may can get it back to one couple.  But you have to go FORWARD from there to include all your 14th cousins 12 times removed from half-sisters of your great-great-great grand-aunt's second marriage to the adopted son of the travelling salesman.

I simply don't believe in this "pure-bloodline" concept. 

Bob, I wish I could help you with your perplexity.  All I can tell you is--I'm not perplexed.  I might be WRONG, but I'm not perplexed.


   
   
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2015, 12:34:18 AM »

Or, it could be that the creation story in Genesis is a parable, a story, an allegory, not literally true, but filled with immense spiritual truths.

Jesus didn't just start teaching in parables in the New Testament.

That would explain a snake walking on its hind legs talking to a woman and the woman talking back to him.

That would explain two trees.  One whose fruit brought death.  The other tree that brought age abiding life, and why the two dummies did not eat from that tree first.

Why the Cherubim, associated with the throne of God, guarded this tree, and a flaming sword turning every which way also guarded this tree.

Symbolism?  Maybe not literally true?  But full of deep spiritual truths as revealed by the Spirit of God.

Adam is the Hebrew name for mankind, humanity.  Eve is the mother of all living.  Symbols, not literal.


Also, remember that the Gospel was preached to Abraham---namely that in you all the nations would be blessed.  All saved.  No one left out.  Good news indeed.  Read Galatians 3:8.

Later we learn that neither Abraham or Isaac are that important.  That the One Seed is Jesus, God Almighty, Who will save all the nations.  Read Galatians 3:16.

And if Jesus is in us, then We are the heirs of the promise of salvation.  Galatians 3:29

Hi John,

I think the majority of us understand that the old testament, and indeed all of scripture, has spiritual application and importance to us beyond the literal. This doesn't change the fact that these things literally happened first.

A burning talking bush is somehow more believable to you than a talking serpent?

Paul says all these things HAPPENED unto THEM. Happened. His words by inspiration of God. Paul speaks of adam and eve as actual people and goes on to discern spiritual truth regarding Christ and His church.

Paul also tells us that what is first is not the spiritual (parabolic truths) but the natural (those literal stories) and THEN that which is spiritual.

Denying Adam and Eve's literal historical existence as recorded seems to me to create many scriptural problems.

I suppose we agree to disagree on this issue. That isn't to say I disagree with you about the spiritual truths and their importance. Simply that I see a natural story there first that actually happened but in such a way that with the spirit of God greater and more important spiritual insight are revealed. The spiritual truths are always more important than the literal so I don't want anyone thinking I'm denying that.

Yes eve is the mother of all living because from her would eventually come our God born of a virgin to take away the sins of the world and reconcile humanity to Himself. Isn't this also another way to interpret her as the mother of all living?

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 12:56:58 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2015, 12:53:53 AM »



Hi Rose,

Initially when I contemplated this idea it did seem strange but everything fits very well together. All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer). It also helps explain why the Jews were so meticulous about their genealogies, keeping them pure, and recording their history. Why they also had such disdain for the gentiles, because they could literally trace their bloodline back to God through adam and the gentiles could not.

Alex, while I appreciate the rest of your post, I have an issue with this bolded bit.  If you mean they "could not" because they did not (for whatever reason) keep such records...I don't have any major issue with that.  If you mean they "could not" because they WERE NOT, then I do.  Spend some time thinking about a genealogy--any genealogy--and how they work.  They only trace back through a relatively small selection of 'family'.  In the case of the genealogies in scripture, they tend to trace back only through ONE LINE.  Even when they 'diverge' (as they do below with the three sons of Noah), they eventually peter out and return to the one line.

Here's the genealogy in Genesis up to Noah and his sons.

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2  Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3  And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4  And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5  And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6  And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7  And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8  And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9  And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10  And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11  And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12  And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13  And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14  And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15  And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16  And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17  And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:18  And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
Gen 5:19  And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:20  And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
Gen 5:21  And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22  And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23  And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Gen 5:25  And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
Gen 5:26  And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:27  And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Gen 5:28  And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Gen 5:29  And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Gen 5:30  And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:31  And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Gen 5:32  And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Among those named, there is not a single Jew yet.  And there are many NOT named.  Are they "gentiles"?  Are their descendants Gentiles?  Can not the other un-named 'begatted sons and daughters" also trace their lineage back--at least to the point where they diverged?  Who are the mothers, and what is THEIR lineage?  We just don't know.  CAIN apparently took a wife from someone outside his lineage.

The same apples to the other "updated" genealogies. 

Here's what immediately follows this "genealogy". 

Gen 6:1  And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2  That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

So Cain was not alone in going outside the "family" for mates.

And so far, even Abraham hasn't arrived.

Trace your own roots back 14 generations, if you can.  You may can get it back to one couple.  But you have to go FORWARD from there to include all your 14th cousins 12 times removed from half-sisters of your great-great-great grand-aunt's second marriage to the adopted son of the travelling salesman.

I simply don't believe in this "pure-bloodline" concept. 

Bob, I wish I could help you with your perplexity.  All I can tell you is--I'm not perplexed.  I might be WRONG, but I'm not perplexed.
 

Hi Dave,

Its as you said in the first line. I simply did not desire to flesh out the intricacies and details that my perspective would require so I took a blanket approach.

Cain is a perfect example of what you just mentioned. For whatever reason, these other people (who from scripture are referred to as gentile nations when the Jews come about) either did not keep details of their lineage if they truly were decedent's of adam or these details where lost over time.

The main point is that Adam was not the first human on this planet and there were already people outside the garden whom cain feared and eventually married into. This is most likely what occurred with Adam's children too as they increased and spread across the earth. How many decedents of Adam did marry with those outside the garden, how many people were outside the garden during adam's formation etc... are questions I don't think we will ever answer In this lifetime.

Hope I'm making sense.
God bless,
Alex
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Kat

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2015, 01:27:04 AM »


In Gen. 1:26-27 "created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them," this is the first creation of human beings. Not as a herd, Bob, but a single man and woman that God started with, probably many thousands of years before Adam and Eve. Possibly similar to what scientist say, where they gradually spread out across the world.

Then at the time appointed God "formed" Adam (Gen 2:7), this was the beginning of His plan of salvation for mankind, through that lineage. It is not hard for me to believe that God kept a pure line from Adam all the way to the point that the Son was born into the world.

I do believe Adam and Eve were real people, but I believe much of the story elements are symbolic... the tree of life - is Christ for obvious reasons, the talking serpent was not a snake, but the nature of the 'person' was symbolized by a snake as cunning, crafty, prudent, subtile to lure Eve into disobeying.

There is symbolism throughout Scripture, there are higher spiritual message in all of it. But it's hidden from the world, they can only see the literal story, the physical/natural comes first.

1Co 15:46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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zvezda

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2015, 10:59:22 AM »

All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer).
I am not so sure about Adam being the first farmer, humans started farming about 12,000 years ago (10,000 BC). It seems that there were farmers long before Adam, do some research on history of agriculture if you like.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2015, 01:27:15 PM »

All the scriptures harmonize perfectly when you come to realize that adam wasn't the first man on the earth, just the first man to till the earth and dress it (farmer).
I am not so sure about Adam being the first farmer, humans started farming about 12,000 years ago (10,000 BC). It seems that there were farmers long before Adam, do some research on history of agriculture if you like.

Hi Zvezda,

I don't have a problem with the dating being off. Its not off very much. I understand the dating techniques used in science, [removed], and we humans aren't without error in our study of the past. Our techniques are subject to their own limitations as well as human error. A perfect example of this is the current Egyptian chronology and the fierce debate that is currently going on to revise it. When you look this far back into the past, with nothing but fragments of it remaining, the image you get is quiet murky and unclear. Mistakes are made. What I do trust without a doubt is God and His timeline.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 03:21:21 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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dave

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2015, 02:21:12 PM »


In Gen. 1:26-27 "created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them," this is the first creation of human beings. Not as a herd, Bob, but a single man and woman that God started with, probably many thousands of years before Adam and Eve. Possibly similar to what scientist say, where they gradually spread out across the world.

Then at the time appointed God "formed" Adam (Gen 2:7), this was the beginning of His plan of salvation for mankind, through that lineage. It is not hard for me to believe that God kept a pure line from Adam all the way to the point that the Son was born into the world.

I do believe Adam and Eve were real people, but I believe much of the story elements are symbolic... the tree of life - is Christ for obvious reasons, the talking serpent was not a snake, but the nature of the 'person' was symbolized by a snake as cunning, crafty, prudent, subtile to lure Eve into disobeying.

There is symbolism throughout Scripture, there are higher spiritual message in all of it. But it's hidden from the world, they can only see the literal story, the physical/natural comes first.

1Co 15:46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

 :)
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Joel

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Re: All from Adam and Noah?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2015, 11:10:29 PM »

I agree Alex that dating issues are a problem that as of now are mostly unresolved.

The Bible that we have does a lot to help in understanding how things came about. God chose Abram,(Abraham) a shepherd that was constantly moving his flocks to greener pastures.
After many years of God blessing him and increasing his family and flocks one of his sons Jacob, (Israel) took his family into Egypt.
Egypt was one of the first places that put growing crops and raising cattle together (farming) and became a mighty people. After 400 years God moved the Israelites out of Egypt to a land flowing with milk and honey. (The fertile crescent).
Another thing that comes to mind; The sons of God, those that are chosen of God, lead by his Spirit, and have faith, could still to this day be taking wives from the daughters of men.

Joel
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 11:41:33 PM by Joel »
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