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Author Topic: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?  (Read 3553 times)

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Gina

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Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« on: May 27, 2015, 06:01:03 PM »

   

Hi Everybody,

This is one of the most important questions that comes up periodically on the forum and the members are not always in agreement.  So, in hopes of clearing up the question, here is an excerpt from an email question and answer from 2007:


Source:  http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2909.0.html

Dear Quentin:  I will try to COMMENT in your email.............
     
      Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
     
    COMMENT:  I really dislike questions like this. It's kinda like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

What do you MEAN by "cease?"  One day Jesus WAS God and the next day Jesus WAS.......what?  A different person? A different being?  The Bible tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness" [similarity,not exactness] of sinful flesh, but didn't sin, and was emptied of His internal powers so that He would be subject to death, and to     live a life in the flesh that we are to emulate, etc.  But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God." Why do you ask that?  Do you think Jesus "CEASED" to be God.  Jesus did all that He did in the flesh through and by the power of His Father. But, having His Father by His side, He could do anything He wanted to:  walk on water, heal the sick, conquor the world, raise the dead.

     

[emphasis added]

Ray says, "But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God [when He became incarnate]. Why would you ask that?"  I love that. 

Anyway, I hope that helps someone here.

:)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 06:03:37 PM by Gina »
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Kat

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2015, 10:39:09 AM »


Hi Gina, here's a few more from the FAQ http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15921.0.html

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3316.msg24692#msg24692 -----------

    Dear Elizabeth:
    I'm afraid this is one of those questions that it would first take ten pages to explain what we mean
by "God." What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc.,   etc.  "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US"  (Matt. 1:23).  Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case?  Did He pray to HIMSELF? 

On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING."  Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges."  Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9).  Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.
     
    I'm sorry, but nearly 99% of all questions asked of me in emails are entirely too long for an email. I could easily spend a week or two researching and writing on this very question you ask. The Bible is not nearly as "simple" and Christians claim that it is. It will probably take me 60 pages to explain Matt. 5:22 and Matt. 10:28 in my upcoming Installment on Hell Part D. The more difficult Scriptures and concepts (as the one you just asked me), are tied to every other Scripture and concept in the entirety of the Bible.  People have no concept of absolutely how PRECISE one must be in his words and explanations of these things, or it will contradict some verse somewhere.  Maybe God has given me an ability to make difficult things understandable and seemingly "simple."  Nothing, however, is SIMPLE in the Scriptures.  If it were, not every major doctrine of Christendom would be UNscriptural.  Hope you understand.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3443.msg25690#msg25690 ----

Dear Christopher:

Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."

[1]  "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).

[2]  "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]"  (Rev. 1:08).

[3]  "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).

[4]  "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

[5]  "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies?  Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).

[6]  "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).

One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God."  Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2909.0.html ----------

First, John 1:1 (I checked this verse in three translations including the KJ, and each one read word for word the same) says that the word was God.  Does this mean Jesus was God?
     
    COMMENT:  Yes, and Jesus still is God.
     
      Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
     
    COMMENT:  I really dislike questions like this. It's kinda like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
    What do you MEAN by "cease?"  One day Jesus WAS God and the next day Jesus WAS.......what?  A different person? A different being?  The Bible tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness" [similarity,not exactness] of
    sinful flesh, but didn't sin, and was emptied of His internal powers so that He would be subject to death, and to
    live a life in the flesh that we are to emulate, etc.  But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God."
    Why do you ask that?  Do you think Jesus "CEASED" to be God.  Jesus did all that He did in the flesh through and by the power of His Father. But, having His Father by His side, He could do anything He wanted to:  walk on water, heal the sick, conquor the world, raise the dead.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6907.0.html ---------

Dear Mike:
Jesus Christ HAS a God and Father: God the Father does NOT have a God. (II Cor. 11:31).
 
God greater than Jesus (John 14:28).
 
Jesus will always be subjected to His Father, while His Father will never be subject to Jesus, so the Father is BOSS! (ICor. 15:27-28).
 

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6484.0.html -------------

Dear Scott:
    Who said that "Jesus isn't equal with God?" Jesus is in the very IMAGE OF GOD:

    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    I Cor. 4:4--"...the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God..."

    Heb 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person.."

    Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Jesus, however, is NOT His Own Father, and will always be in subjection to His Father:

    1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [His Father] that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html --------------

Dear Christopher:

    "God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.

    If One is:

    THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)

    POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)

    HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)

    Then that One IS GOD!  Jesus filfills all three of those

    statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why

    Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5928.0.html -------

Dear David:  In the Scriptures (I don't refer to all "Bibles" as the Word of God, but rather the Scriptures), "The Word of God" can mean the actual spoken words from God (Matt. 4:4); the inspired word of God coming to the prophets (Ezek. 25:3); the written Word of God (Jer. 30:2), the Word of God in ANY form (Heb. 4:12); and the Personification of God's Word (Jesus) (John 1:1-14).
   

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ------------------------------------

Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
 
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).

And also:
 
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:

"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).

"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
 
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.

Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.

Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:

"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

v
v

[Ray Replies]

Dear Brett:

I actually answer this in my paper on the trinity. Yet I get asked it continually. The reason is, I believe, that most are not willing to accept the answer I give FROM THE SCRIPTURES.

 I am asked: "Is Jesus GOD or isn't He GOD?"

 When I answer: "Yes, Jesus IS GOD," they are not satisfied with that answer they want to know: "Well then, as there is only ONE GOD, and if Jesus IS GOD, then Jesus must be THAT ONE GOD INCLUDING THE FATHER, and so by deduction, JESUS IS THE FATHER.

 I'm not saying you, Bret, but there is no end to the times I get this posed to me. And yes, there are those religions that firmly believe that JESUS CHRIS IS GOD THE FATHER.

 When the Pharisees accused Jesus of blaspheming because He said He was "The SON of God," Jesus reminded them that their own scriptures state that, "YE ARE GODS."

"I have said, YE ARE GODS; and all of you are CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH" (Psalm 82:6).

"For WE [Believers] ARE members of His [Jesus] body, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they TWO shall be ONE flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH" (Eph. 5:31-32).

 "That they ALL may be ONE [Who?--ALL. How many?--ONE] as you Father are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be ONE in US... And the glory which You gave to Me I have given them, that they may be ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE" (John 17:21-22).

This IS the Scripture that Jesus quoted. They didn't accept what Jesus said, and people will not accept what I say.

 I'll try once more:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH" (Gen. 2:24).

How many people?--TWO.  How many flesh?--ONE.

There the Scriptural answer!

"...that they may be ONE, even as WE [Jesus AND His Father] ARE O-N- E"!!!

HOW many Persons? Jesus & Father--TWO. HOW many GODS?--O-N-E   G-O-D!!!

 As a "husband and wife" ARE ONE, and "Jesus and His Church," ARE ONE, so also "Jesus and His Father," ARE ONE.

 I don't what more I can say or how many times I can say it.  I hope this helps.

God be with you,

Ray


WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? - 2007 Nashville Conference
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
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Gina

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2015, 01:18:55 PM »

Yes, that's where I found what I posted. 

Is Jesus "man with us"?  No, Jesus is [was and will be] "GOD with us."  I love that too.  Thanks for helping out, Kat.
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octoberose

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2015, 07:50:39 PM »

Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus?  The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also.  However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2015, 08:41:51 PM »

Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus?  The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also.  However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.

Hi Rose,

Can you please explain where it says in the bible that Jesus or anyone inherited adam's sin? I see that death passed to all for all have sinned but I don't see where sin passed to all. Christ became our passover because He was the spotless lamb without blemish. He had no sin in Him and died for all sin for all time. Here are the verses in consideration that I can think of:

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many [NOT 'all'] were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Cor 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin [OFFERING] for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Gal 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Hebrew 2: 8-10
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrew 2:14-18
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Here is the verse you reference in Jesus being refered to as a man;

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Here is Mary refered to as the mother of Jesus;

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Now as for Jesus being the son of Mary, I don't see a problem with that. It says that He was born of her in Matthew. Isn't one the son of the woman that gives birth to him?

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 09:46:24 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Gina

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2015, 11:18:45 PM »

Hi, Octoberose

Bodies (arms and legs and feet and hands) don't "offend" or commit sin without something causing them to do so.  It all starts in the mind/heart.  It is not out of the dust of the earth that come sin and murders and evil desires, it is OUT OF THE HEART.  (Matt. 15:19)  When the bible speaks of the "sinful flesh" it means the carnal mind.  Jesus Christ didn't have a carnal mind.  He had the mind of His Father in Heaven, seeing how He was conceived not by sperm but of the Holy Spirit of God, the Father in Heaven.  Therefore, Jesus Christ had the MIND of God His Father in heaven.  And even Jesus said, "I always do what pleases My Father."  And that is why Paul said, "Let this mind be in you."
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 11:58:04 PM by Gina »
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Gina

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2015, 11:38:17 PM »

Here is where I got what I was saying:

Let's pay close attention to just one statement from Jesus that should help everyone to see that this is figurative language that teaches us a great spiritual truth. Jesus did not say what most Christians think He said.

Jesus did not say: "And if your eye offends you, repent of your lust or God will cast you into an hell of immortal worms and everlasting fire which will never stop burning."

But that is what most Christians think Jesus meant even if He didn't actually say it. Nonsense.

"And if your eye offend you..."

This word "offend" means: "to entice you to sin" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).

Now then, is it even "literally" possible for a physical organ of the body to be the cause of a moral or spiritual sin? No, it is not possible. Lusting after a woman does not have its origin in the eyes but rather in the heart.

"...whosoever looks [with the eyes] on a woman to lust [in his heart, not in his eyes] after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

The lust of the eyes is itself a "figure of speech." We "look" with our eyes, but we "lust" with our heart. And the "heart" in Scripture virtually never means the organ of the body which pumps blood. The "heart" in Scripture is the inner most man, the seat of emotions and passions, conscience, and moral character. No physical organ of the body has even one of these spiritual attributes. More proof:

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).

Did you notice that "looking on a woman to lust after her" IS adultery, and it comes not from the eyes, but from the heart. So then, is this teaching in Matt. 5:27-30, literal, or figurative? It is figurative.


Source:  http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 12:00:07 AM by Gina »
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Gina

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2015, 11:40:39 PM »

And thanks for your input and post, Alex. 
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Kat

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2015, 11:13:10 AM »

Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus?  The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also.  However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.

Well we know that Jesus was born of Mary as a flesh and blood human being and in so being referred to Himself a lot as the "Son of man."

I am thinking that the reason people believe that Jesus would have "inherited the sin of Adam," is because they misunderstand Scripture and believe that "for as in Adam all die," (1Co 15:22) means that because of the erroneous notion of the 'fall of man' that transferred/inherited sin to all people.

Rom 5:12  Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.

Their faulty thinking is that if Jesus was born of the sinful flesh, then He had to be sinful as well... they just do not understand and other Scripture confuse them more, like what Jesus said...

John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Yes flesh is weak and our carnality lends to inevitable sin, BUT there was a big difference in Christ, He had the Spirit without measure and that made Him God and far beyond the pulls of the flesh.

John 3:34  For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. (ESV)

Being born a human He certainly was of the flesh, but not carnal minded in any way. It's an oxymoron to say He was God in the flesh and carnal, that's as impossibility.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

We have a good many Scripture that plainly state Christ Jesus had no sin.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

1Peter 1:18  knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
v. 19  but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

1Peter 2:22  He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

Isa 53:9  And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

2Co 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him." (CLV)

1John 3:5  And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 12:59:06 PM by Kat »
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virginiabm

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2015, 11:27:38 AM »

Hi my family. I know I don't post much, but the subject has come up that I think about a lot. Was Mary really the mother of Jesus or just a vessel to house Him in? I know in my studies on this, Jesus never calls Mary His Mother, Not in the KJV. There might be a Bible that does, but anyway Jesus only calls Mary woman. John 3. The wedding in cannan. When Jesus was on the tree He told John behold your Mother and told Mary behold your Son. I don't have a problem with her being Jesus' mother, I just wondered why He did not address her as His mother. There was another time when Jesus was told that His mother was wanting to talk to Him, He said who is my mother and He looked around and said those who do my Fathers will. I think that is the way it went. I can't remember the chap. and verse..
  Jesus always addressed His Father as My Father, but when it comes to Mary Jesus addresses her as woman, He never says my mother or mother while talking to her or others. This is just something I've been thinking about and wondering about as well. As I said I have no problem with Mary being Jesus Earth Mother. Just wondering why that's all.

       Virginia Miller
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Gina

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2015, 01:31:34 PM »

Hi my family. I know I don't post much, but the subject has come up that I think about a lot. Was Mary really the mother of Jesus or just a vessel to house Him in? I know in my studies on this, Jesus never calls Mary His Mother, Not in the KJV. There might be a Bible that does, but anyway Jesus only calls Mary woman. John 3. The wedding in cannan. When Jesus was on the tree He told John behold your Mother and told Mary behold your Son. I don't have a problem with her being Jesus' mother, I just wondered why He did not address her as His mother. There was another time when Jesus was told that His mother was wanting to talk to Him, He said who is my mother and He looked around and said those who do my Fathers will. I think that is the way it went. I can't remember the chap. and verse..
  Jesus always addressed His Father as My Father, but when it comes to Mary Jesus addresses her as woman, He never says my mother or mother while talking to her or others. This is just something I've been thinking about and wondering about as well. As I said I have no problem with Mary being Jesus Earth Mother. Just wondering why that's all.

       Virginia Miller


Hi, Virginia,

That is an interesting question.  According to Jesus:


33 ... “Who are my mother and my brothers?”

34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!

35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”


I'm not suggesting the reason Jesus didn't address her as "mother" (in public, at least) is because Mary didn't do the will of God.

People, especially in the Catholic Church system, make a big deal out of her because her title suggests that she was somehow ABOVE Him in status.  The focus should always be on the GREATER One, and He knew that.  She didn't have a problem with it.  Mary was not offended probably because she knew that she as His "mother" should not usurp His authority.  Besides, maybe because Joseph had died so early in Jesus' life that Jesus was made the "man" of the house, but that's total speculation on my part.

People unfortunately subconsciously make the false assumption that Mary (being Jesus' "mother")  formed and shaped Him instead in God, His Father, all because she fed Him some milk, but the fact of the matter is, she didn't really even know who He was.

27As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!”

28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153


On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.

At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.

Luke 2:48  And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.

By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.

v. 49  And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…

“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch. 

v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50  And they understood not…

They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.

I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”

So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 01:33:41 PM by Gina »
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virginiabm

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2015, 05:22:47 PM »

I believe Mary did the will of God. She was appointed to carry our Saviour in her womb and deliver Him to the world.
Maybe this is how she is His Mother, because she did the will of our Father. I have no idea why Jesus didn't call her Mother in public. I was just expounding on what Rose wrote, because I had some of the same thoughts. Mary was very blessed to be able to carry the Son of The Living God, even thou it caused her great persecution, But Our Father saw her though,as He does us all.

     With Love, Virginia Miller
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Gina

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2015, 05:36:44 PM »

I believe Mary did the will of God. She was appointed to carry our Saviour in her womb and deliver Him to the world.
Maybe this is how she is His Mother, because she did the will of our Father. I have no idea why Jesus didn't call her Mother in public. I was just expounding on what Rose wrote, because I had some of the same thoughts. Mary was very blessed to be able to carry the Son of The Living God, even thou it caused her great persecution, But Our Father saw her though,as He does us all.

     With Love, Virginia Miller

Yes, of course, by the power of God she did what she was appointed to do. God made sure of it. 

This world and the way it works is all about woman.  When Adam took one look at Eve he fell for her so hard that when Eve disobeyed God he didn't have the you-know-what's to stand up to her and say, STOP WOMAN -- YOU'RE DOING WRONG!  (Obviously, had he, we wouldn't have a human race.)  He had her on a pedestal.  He worshiped her instead of God.  The lesson here is that Jesus didn't WORSHIP HIS MOTHER.  He didn't look to HER WARM EMBRACE for comfort, seeing how He Himself is the Comforter. 

The world we live in worships females, mothers and women and their beauty literally and figuratively speaking, and that is why the world is in the mess it's in.  And women love it.  They are addicted to the point that the beauty industry is a billion/trillion dollar industry.  Men put women on pedestals and worship them for the express purpose of being worshipped and adored in return.  And women gain POWER from that "love" and the attention that men give them, and end up hurting the man, because the man learns to look to the woman instead of their Father in Heaven for their sustenance.  But women CAN'T sustain a man.  They can't because women are not the source of love.  GOD is love.  The only thing that the love of a woman can do is turn men into a wimp or a bully because it SEPARATES men from the source of Truth and true Love - God. 

Jesus was not a "mama's boy."  He looked to His Father in Heaven for EVERYTHING.  And that is the lesson that Jesus was giving.  He didn't disrespect her at all.   She had a job and place and she was not to be viewed as greater than her Son.  And I believe there is a scripture that says that she will be rewarded in some way for her role and her obedience, but not in this life - not to be worshipped as the woman / mother of God.  How absurd.

Does that make sense, Virginia? :)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 05:53:06 PM by Gina »
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virginiabm

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2015, 06:29:10 PM »

Hi Gina, I think you might have misunderstood my thoughts. I do not think for one minute that Jesus disrepected Mary in any way. My thoughts were did He consider Mary to be His mother? Everyone called her His mother, but when Jesus addressed her, He called her woman. Our Saviour died for her as well as everybody eles. He loves her just like He loves us.  I don't think calling her mother would put her above God or make Jesus a mama's boy.
As for women being the down fall of men, I think it goes both ways if you are not with the right person. We all have a knack for hurting each other in some way, fashion or form. 
   I know Jesus was all about His Father, as we all should be, but my thoughts were did Jesus consider Mary to be His mother? Or did He consider her just another disciple to be taught? As you pointed out, she did not know who Jesus was even though she got pregnant without a mans help. I do hope i have made myself clear. I would hate it if someone thought I was disrepecting my Savior in any way. That was not the reason I brought up my thoughts on this subject.       In Love , virginia miller
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Gina

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2015, 06:34:19 PM »

Not at all, Virginia.  I'm sorry if you thought that is what I was getting at.  I was just "buying up every opportunity," as it were. :)

I'm sure He knew what Mary's role was - considering how HE MADE HER for the express purpose of birthing Him.  But even still, He came out of His Father in Heaven.  Did he consider her his mother?  I'm sure He loved her very, very much.  More than you could possibly know.  I mean no disrespect but look closely at how you framed your question:

Quote
but my thoughts were did Jesus consider Mary to be His mother? Or did He consider her just another disciple to be taught?

The emphasis of her being his mother you seem to put ABOVE being another disciple, or as you put it "just" another disciple, as if it makes a difference to God -- Who is NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS.   

I love Mary's example.  She said, "Do what He says."  That tells me, Mary did the Father's  will and for that reason He considered her His mother (and disciple).

I hope that helps and clears up the matter. 

Have a good day.
Gina
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 06:47:43 PM by Gina »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2015, 07:45:45 PM »

Hi Gina, I think you might have misunderstood my thoughts. I do not think for one minute that Jesus disrepected Mary in any way. My thoughts were did He consider Mary to be His mother? Everyone called her His mother, but when Jesus addressed her, He called her woman. Our Saviour died for her as well as everybody eles. He loves her just like He loves us.  I don't think calling her mother would put her above God or make Jesus a mama's boy.
As for women being the down fall of men, I think it goes both ways if you are not with the right person. We all have a knack for hurting each other in some way, fashion or form. 
   I know Jesus was all about His Father, as we all should be, but my thoughts were did Jesus consider Mary to be His mother? Or did He consider her just another disciple to be taught? As you pointed out, she did not know who Jesus was even though she got pregnant without a mans help. I do hope i have made myself clear. I would hate it if someone thought I was disrepecting my Savior in any way. That was not the reason I brought up my thoughts on this subject.       In Love , virginia miller

Hi Virginia,

This may tie into the fact that God is no respector of person. Jesus is, was, and will be God. He emptied Himself of some of His divinity so that He could take on the form of a man and die, so that he could be subject to death, but he still retained that mind of God. There is neither male nor female, jew nor greek, bond nor free, for we are all one in Christ. This would have included how Jesus saw marry. Just because she gave birth to Him, doesn't mean that she is somehow any more important to God than the rest of us. We are all unique and special to God and will all bring something that He doesn't want to exist without in the kingdom, regardless of whether our flesh and blood gave birth to His flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more [after the flesh].

Put on the mind of Christ. Have the mind of Christ. So then who is His mother now? Those that are His brothers, His sisters, His mother etc... are those that do the will of His Father--Who worship the Father in Spirit and truth. Therefor there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ AND who walk not after the flesh BUT AFTER the spirit.

In the relative Marry is the mother of Jesus physically but in the absolute from God's perspective, who is no respector of person's, a mother or brother or sister of Christ is the one who does the Will of God. Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all. I can't see it any different for Christ who is our example and who as existing we too are existing.

God bless,
Alex



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Rick

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2015, 07:59:40 PM »

Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus?  The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also.  However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.

Hi Rose,

Can you please explain where it says in the bible that Jesus or anyone inherited adam's sin? I see that death passed to all for all have sinned but I don't see where sin passed to all.


Hi Rose,

I agree with Alex on this one.

I remember Ray said something about we don’t sin because of Adam's sin, we sin because we choose to sin and here is the reason why we all sin.

Rom 8:20  For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope .
Also these scripture too, 

Rom 7:14  We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave.
Rom 7:15  I don't understand why I act the way I do. I don't do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate.
Rom 7:16  And if I don't want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.
Rom 7:17  But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it.



God Bless you Rose, see you on the other side.  :)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 08:30:57 PM by Rick »
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Gina

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2015, 08:05:50 PM »

One more thought:  God's word says, "They do honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me."

The first Adam fell down and worshipped a woman after he exclaimed how much he adored her, and he became one with her in the lust of the flesh, and then turned around and blamed her, and vice versa...

Jesus the Last Adam all through His life honored Mary, not with his lips, but by obeying His Father in Heaven. 

Jesus honored Mary as His mother, of course He did.  Didn't He admonish the Pharisees for NOT honoring their parents?  They honored their parents with their lips, but their hearts were clearly far from them.   

Had He gone around addressing her as "my mother," His words:  "Who is my mother, brother and sister..." would have, I don't know, made no sense.  Besides, it matters not what you say, it's what you DO.  "Why call me Lord, and not do what I say?"  Moreover, He was HER Lord.  It just seems obvious that since He knew Who He was and Whom He came out from that His addressing her as "mother" would have put her on a pedestal of sorts, but the truth is everything she was came from Him.  In addition, going around addressing her as "mother" would not have been fitting for Him as He was her Almighty God, Everlasting Father.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 08:10:07 PM by Gina »
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octoberose

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2015, 11:03:18 PM »

I knew this would lead to a conversation!
 Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me."  Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this.  Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
 So,  Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
 I can wrap my head around that.
  In reference to Virginia's comment - as I understand it, calling a woman Gune' - the greek for woman- could be a sign of respect or just how a woman was addressed. Kind of depended on the context. But Jesus did do as his mother wanted when he turned the water into wine even though it was not 'his plan'.  So, that was respectful. And then Jesus 'gave' Mary to John as a mother , gave John to Mary as a son. So some of his last breaths were in caring for  her.
 Gina, I love your passion. I love, love the story of Jesus as a 12 year old and his parents frantically searching for him and he's 'doing his Father's business". What I believe God led me to about that was that Mary and Joseph were so shocked by his answer because They Had Never Told Him Who He Was. How do you mention that to a child that his true father is the Creator of the Universe? They had not told him, But The Holy Spirit did. I'm always amused by people who think that Mary forgot who Jesus was and didn't understand what he was saying. I am the mother of three regular kids and I can tell you the when and where and how I had them. Mary cherished all these things in her heart and didn't forget a thing. She had just never told Jesus who He was. I'm sure she knew God would in His time.
 

 
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2015, 11:41:47 PM »

I knew this would lead to a conversation!
 Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me."  Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this.  Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
 So,  Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
 I can wrap my head around that.
  In reference to Virginia's comment - as I understand it, calling a woman Gune' - the greek for woman- could be a sign of respect or just how a woman was addressed. Kind of depended on the context. But Jesus did do as his mother wanted when he turned the water into wine even though it was not 'his plan'.  So, that was respectful. And then Jesus 'gave' Mary to John as a mother , gave John to Mary as a son. So some of his last breaths were in caring for  her.
 Gina, I love your passion. I love, love the story of Jesus as a 12 year old and his parents frantically searching for him and he's 'doing his Father's business". What I believe God led me to about that was that Mary and Joseph were so shocked by his answer because They Had Never Told Him Who He Was. How do you mention that to a child that his true father is the Creator of the Universe? They had not told him, But The Holy Spirit did. I'm always amused by people who think that Mary forgot who Jesus was and didn't understand what he was saying. I am the mother of three regular kids and I can tell you the when and where and how I had them. Mary cherished all these things in her heart and didn't forget a thing. She had just never told Jesus who He was. I'm sure she knew God would in His time.

Hi Rose,

Psalm 51 is a reference to the mother's sins. The baby is not sinful and the baby is not sin. Sin is the transgression of God's spiritual law.

God didn't make us sinful. He made us spiritually weak. He subjected us to moral futility by reason of our weak hearts. We are marred in the hand's of the potter and then made a second time in a fashion that is pleasing to Him. God doesn't make us sin and God tempts no man. We volunteer to sin due to our weak condition (the beast/carnal mind/the antiChrist) and the influences of satan. It takes God's spirit to do good. Christ was full of the spirit and grace so He didn't and could not sin. Sin was the inevitable result of man's weak condition and inibility to obery God's higher spiritual laws. This by the wisdom of God.

A baby will not be an elect because a baby still has to undergo that process of being made new. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Death and then judgement. Die now voluntarily and be baptized into Christ's death so that you can be in the likeness of His resurrection or be thrown into the fire and die in the next age. Either way, you will be conformed into the image of the Son.

At the time of Jesus' birth, Mary was a carnal woman. So Jesus was concieved in Marry's sin but that doesn't make Him sinful or sin. We sin until the day we die so every child will be concieved 'in sin,' but if the spirit of God is in us then sin won't REIGN in our bodies. Jesus didn't sin, He had no sin in Him, and He didn't have a carnal mind. He put on this weak vessel that is the human body so that He could be a faithful high priest who is tempted in every point and so that He could be killed. He became our passover lamb. Ray pointed out that the lamb at passover didn't die because it was sin or because it sinned but because is took the place of those who did sin because there is no remissions of sin without the shedding of blood.

The reason you need blood is because a will is not binding until the person who writes it is dead. So Jesus Christ sealed the new covenent, The will of God, with His death. With His blood. So 'The Will' ('The New Covenent') is now in effect.

God bless,
Alex
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