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Author Topic: God means Placer  (Read 4731 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2015, 12:05:38 AM »

Hello Alex,

I have always been here. I don't post much because i don't like to debate or argue. i have been here since 2007, just reading all the posts and seeing what everybody is talking about. I have read and reread everything that Ray has written and have come to a point where i understand most of it. Not all.

But in my last post, I realise that Ray didn't mean a "Man" as in "flesh and blood". As jesus is so are we in this world, does that make me something other than a man or does it mean i am still "flesh and blood" but with the down payment of his "Spirit". I believe the latter. When Jesus was on this earth he was definitely "flesh and blood", but there was a difference, he had the fullness of God dwelling within him.

I didn't think that Ray meant that "Jesus will always be a man" as in "flesh and blood". I know what he meant and i believe i understand it. It's a bit hard for me to put it on paper. So I won't. But I will say that Jesus is the first of many. He is Pre Eminent. Therefore when he comes we will all change and be like him. So does that mean i will no longer be a "Man". In a sense i will still be a "Man" but no longer "flesh and blood".

Anyway that is all i have to say. Thanks everyone. Regards Geoff.

Then we are in agreement Geoff. Thanks for clarifying :)

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lauriellen

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2015, 12:18:19 AM »

JFk, I was just wondering if you would care to share a few of the scriptures that you feel were the most important keys to leading you to the understanding of the nature of God. I am not asking you to expound on them if you don't want to, as I know teaching is not allowed......just throw us a bone to chew on  ;)  thanks.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2015, 12:30:29 AM »

JFk, I was just wondering if you would care to share a few of the scriptures that you feel were the most important keys to leading you to the understanding of the nature of God. I am not asking you to expound on them if you don't want to, as I know teaching is not allowed......just throw us a bone to chew on  ;)  thanks.

Hi Lauriellen,

JFK might have seen something in ray's paper that was taken down by Dennis which was on the forums for a  time. I do not believe I had a chance to read it and if I did I certainly don't recall it.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13920.msg141794.html#msg141794

JFK:
This thread is proof of everlasting life.  It won't die.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ray said in his April 2, 2011 message that his previous writings about the nature of God and Jesus were incomplete in that he (Ray) did not bring together all the Scriptures on this subject.
Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.
Therefore, it was Ray himself who acknowledged his previous teachings on this subject are not complete.
Ray's message of April 2, 2011 has been removed from the B-T website.  I believe it was wrong to do so.  But God will judge.
Ray is not Jesus.  Ray's teachings are not Scripture.  What I respected about Ray was his adherence to God's Word and respect for it.  And his courage to rethink a subject to see if it truly conformed to the Scriptures.  I talked with Ray a few times in person and several times over the telephone.  Ray's respect for God's Scriptures is what stood out to me.
In one of our conversations I told Ray that I didn't think the majority of members of the B-T Forum would accept where he was headed with this Enigma/Nature of God subject.  Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit of God leads us.
Since, Ray brought this matter up, I've been studying all the Scriptures I could find on this subject.  I asked God to teach me because I want to know all there is about Him.  What He truly is.
God has showed me that He is One.  There are not two, or three of them.  Only One God, Who is unique and special and unlike anything we can imagine.  Who can appear before Abraham under the terenbith trees of Mamre, and as an actual human being on the earth and be killed, and at the same time be beyond the heaven of heavens because nothing can contain Him.
But it is apparent that there are not two of us who believe the same thing on this issue.  It is a source of confusion.  I am going to try and stay out of this discussion in the future.
Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls before someone who cannot appreciate value.  Only God can bring understanding on this matter.  God said the time will come when all will know Me (God) from the least to the greatest.
What a Great and Magnificent God He truly is.  What a blessing that He is creating mankind in His image.


DENNIS:
Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.
I've said this before and I guess I have to say it again.
Ray was doing a LOT of pain medication the last year of his life. There were more than one post he wanted on the forum that I asked Craig not to post. He was not making sense.
I questioned Ray more than once at breakfast about this and he had no answers for my questions.
Ray was not always thinking right the last year of his life. He was confused much of the time. He was wrong about this.
He never figured this out because it contracted what he taught many years ago.


JFK:
Hey Dave.  No need to respect me.  I'm just a man.  If you think I'm lying, just say so.   :D
However, I did not misrepresent Ray's April 2, 2011 message.  It was in writing and on this website at least a couple of years, I believe.  I found Ray coherent and writing in plain English and quoting Scriptures in support of his statements that his and our understanding of this nature of God matter was not complete.  There are similar emails from Ray on this same matter in the emails section of the Forum.
I will also add that in my conversations with Ray, he was coherent and logical in his words and thoughts and freely quoted Scriptures in support of his statements to me.  I will also add that I found him to be a gentleman in his answers to me, even when I completely disagreed with him on Dr. Steger's health rules.  We parted as friends and on good terms after my last conversation with him.  Our last words concerned the Scripture in Roman's 14 that the Kingdom of God doesn't consist of food or drink.  (Of course, no need to believe me, with all respect.)


You can read more of JFK's responces as well as other discussion in that thread. JFK provides some of his scriptures on page 4 in a discussion with Kat.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 12:37:48 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2015, 12:59:03 AM »

September 13th, 2011 Message by Ray ends with:

I continue to work on my paper delving into the enigma of God.  The real secret to Who or What God is has
everything to do with what God wants, what He desires, what is His plan and purpose for creation. We know
that man is made "in the Image of God"  (Gen. 1:27 and I Cor. 11:7), but why is God in the Image of man?

When we understand what God wants, we will I believe understand Who and What God IS.

Keep me in your prayers as you are in mine, and may God be with you all, always,

Ray

-------------------

I found an April 19th 2012 message from Ray posted by Craig but it didn't seem to have anything to add. Ray said this which was interesting but not much else:

I also have about a hundred pages of additional notes, which I probably won't
use all of.  It is the last Installment that will be the most difficult. Both the concept
and the explanation are a handful for most people to wrap their minds around,
so as with all of my papers, I will strive to made it as simple, logical, and
Scriptural as I am able.  The few papers that I have read on this subject by
scholars who have a relatively good understanding of this Enigma of God,
are so erudite that I doubt many could follow or discern their teaching. That
is decidedly not how I write.

------------------------------------

I'll keep looking...

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lauriellen

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2015, 01:48:11 AM »

Thank you Alex.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2015, 03:37:01 AM »

Ray wrote:  When we understand what God wants, we will I believe understand Who and What God IS.

What is that God wants? 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

cheekie3

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2015, 04:15:56 AM »

Dave in Tenn -

Is not Our Heavenly Father Life itself - and perfect in all He is and does without any faults.

Does not Our Heavenly Father want lots and lots of children - each one unique like precious stones and perfect like Him.

Does He not dwell in Light in absolute Love.

What is the answer then?

That He is perfect and He will reproduce Himself by having many perfect and unique children who are in His Image.

Curious George.
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santgem

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2015, 05:34:15 AM »

But in my last post, I realise that Ray didn't mean a "Man" as in "flesh and blood". As jesus is so are we in this world, does that make me something other than a man or does it mean i am still "flesh and blood" but with the down payment of his "Spirit". I believe the latter. When Jesus was on this earth he was definitely "flesh and blood", but there was a difference, he had the fullness of God dwelling within him.

I didn't think that Ray meant that "Jesus will always be a man" as in "flesh and blood". I know what he meant and i believe i understand it. It's a bit hard for me to put it on paper. So I won't. But I will say that Jesus is the first of many. He is Pre Eminent. Therefore when he comes we will all change and be like him. So does that mean i will no longer be a "Man". In a sense i will still be a "Man" but no longer "flesh and blood".


To the Gentleman,
Greetings!

But in my last post, I realise that Ray didn't mean a "Man" as in "flesh and blood"
When Jesus was on this earth he was definitely "flesh and blood"

I didn't think that Ray meant that "Jesus will always be a man" as in "flesh and blood". I know what he meant and i believe i understand it. It's a bit hard for me to put it on paper. So I won't. But I will say that Jesus is the first of many. He is Pre Eminent. Therefore when he comes we will all change and be like him. So does that mean i will no longer be a "Man". In a sense i will still be a "Man" but no longer "flesh and blood".




We all know very well that when Jesus was resurrected by the Father He was no longer as "flesh and blood" but with glorious body.

The real problem is is when i say that "Jesus will always be a man" someone will find it and make a way to inject that a man is having a flesh and blood and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I have a hard time understanding these people why and why they are comparing the precious blood of Jesus to human like us. I believe that even Jesus will retain His precious blood He will definitely inherit the Kingdom of God because His blood is precious and His blood (1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect) is without blemish or defect.


Precious blood of Jesus:

. The Blood of Christ provides a suitable covering for man's sin, guilt and shame.  Genesis 3:21.

2. The Blood of Christ makes the one who offers it both acceptable to and accepted by God.  Genesis 4:1-6.

3. Through the offering of the Blood of Christ, (we believers) have safety from the coming Judgment.  Exodus 12:13.

4. The Blood of Christ was shed for the remission of our sins.  Matthew 26:28; Ephesians 1:7.

5. Through the Blood of Christ, we have cleansing from sin.  Revelation 1:5; 7:14.

6. Through the Blood of Christ we have redemption; this is, we are bought back out of the slave market.  Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; I Peter 1:18-19.

7. Through the Blood of Christ we have peace with God.  Colossians 1:20; Ephesians 2:14.

8. Through the Blood of Christ we who are "afar off" are "made nigh".  Ephesians 2:13

9. Through the Blood of Christ, the guilt and condemnation we incurred, through the breaking of God's laws, is "blotted out".  Colossians 2:13.

10. The Blood of Christ, called the Blood of God, bought us for God and Christ, and made us His own peculiar possession.  Acts 20:28; I Corinthians 6:19; and I Peter 2:9-10.

11. The Blood of Christ purges our conscience so that our service to the Living God might be acceptable.  Hebrews 9:14.

12. The Blood of Christ gives us an exalted standing, and makes us "kings and priests unto God".  Rev. 1:5-6; 5:9-10.

13. Through the Blood of Christ we are justified before God.  Romans 5:9.

14. Through the Blood of Christ we are sanctified.  I Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:14; 13:12.

15. Through the Blood of Christ we have eternal security and the assurance of salvation.  Hebrews 10:10-14; 13:20; 9:12.

16. Through the Blood of Christ we are made "one" with all others believers-both Jews and Gentiles-in the new body of Christ.  Ephesians 2:13-14.

17. Through the Blood of Christ we are reconciled-made right or righteous with God.  II Corinthians 17-21.

18. Through the Blood of Christ we can enter into "the Holy of Holies", that is, into God's presence in heaven.  Hebrews 10:19-22.

19. Through the Blood of Christ we have fellowship with God, and with His Son Jesus Christ, and with other believers.  I John 1:7; 1:1-3.

20. Through the Blood of Christ He purchased for us "an eternal inheritance".  Hebrews 9:14-15.

21. Through the Blood of Christ we have overcome the Devil.  Revelation 12:11.



Again, i will state and firm in my belief that Jesus will always be a man and God at the same time.


Thank you the gentleman Geoff that you secured my belief and very very very happy and really leaping with joy when you pull up what Ray had said.
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santgem

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2015, 05:58:50 AM »

Santegem,

Quote
They are not literally one! Jesus is not the Father himself. Jesus is having the flesh. Jesus is God and Man at the same time, while Father is Spirit. Jesus is now having a God and Father while in the flesh and even after his resurrection. When Jesus is in the form of Jehovah, they are one!

John 10:30  I and My Father are one."

Jesus declared this as an absolute statement of truth, it cannot be construed to mean just while He was in the flesh. Being as One is what gives Father and Son the quality of God. The Father and the Son are always One, from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be. Humans will be sons/daughters of God as well, when they are resurrected to be One with them... that is the God family, that is being One to be united with the Father through Christ.

John 17:21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Quote
The question is, Is infant Jesus still creating? Where do all the people comes from when Jesus is still infant? Who creates people? Do people create people?  Do you create people? Is God stop creating people up to this date? Is God stop creating things up to this date? Is God literally rested after creation and stop creating people and things up to this date? When Jesus ascended to heaven, did He not creating people and things up to this date or only the God the Father is creating?

This is the Father's creation, EVERYTHING depends on the Father, even the Son "for My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28, also John 10:29; 13:16)... it is from the power (Holy Spirit) of the Father that everything is done through the Son. The Father brought forth and put the Son as God over this creation, to do all His (the Father's) will through the Son. When Christ died it was the Father that continued to uphold this creation.

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2  He was in the beginning with God.
v. 3  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

1Cor 8:6  yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

John 5:19  Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

This is the basics of what I believe and all else hinges on this understanding.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Greetings Kat,


The Father and the Son are always One, from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be.


This is the Father's creation, EVERYTHING depends on the Father, even the Son "for My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28, also John 10:29; 13:16)... it is from the power (Holy Spirit) of the Father that everything is done through the Son. The Father brought forth and put the Son as God over this creation, to do all His (the Father's) will through the Son. When Christ died it was the Father that continued to uphold this creation.





Can you please explain to me well of what you said that "from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be"  then shifted to "everything is done through the Son"
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2015, 09:17:56 AM »

Dave in Tenn -

Is not Our Heavenly Father Life itself - and perfect in all He is and does without any faults.

Does not Our Heavenly Father want lots and lots of children - each one unique like precious stones and perfect like Him.

Does He not dwell in Light in absolute Love.

What is the answer then?

That He is perfect and He will reproduce Himself by having many perfect and unique children who are in His Image.

Curious George.

Bingo! God wants a family.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2015, 11:56:08 AM »


Can you please explain to me well of what you said that "from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be"  then shifted to "everything is done through the Son"

There is but one Scripture that I believe the word "eternal" is properly translated in relation to God.

Rom 1:20  for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable; (YLT)

Another place is where it speaks of "immortality," which Strong's says means deathlessness. Ray explains that this must be speaking of the Father, because Christ did die... though Christ certainly has immortality now. But from this we can gather that the Father is eternal.

Also at the same conference Ray shows that Christ was "the only begotten Son" (John 1:18) and the "Firstfruit" and Christ - the Son was first and foremost in this creation and "He is before all things" (Col 1:17). He came first, because it was through Him that God the Father does everything concerning this creation. He had a beginning and He is the Beginning.

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning (Strong's G746 - a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule) of the creation of God: 

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?'  Nashville 07 Conference

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38212.html#msg38212 -----

Now there is a scripture (1 Tim. 2:5), that I have been taking another look at. Like I say, if I make a mistake I just have no problem saying I was wrong about this or that. 

1Tim 6:13  I charge thee in the sight of God(so who is the subject here - God), who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession;
v. 14  that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 15  which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Well you say that’s got to be talking about Jesus Christ. Well maybe not. I mean God is everything that Jesus Christ is too, you know. Who is the Savior of the world? Jesus Christ? God is the Savior of the world! Yes Jesus Christ is the channel through who it comes. But God almighty is the Savior of the world. He’s also the Creator. We are actually going to find out, who actually did the creating? Christ. But who is the Creator? God the Father, okay. But we are going to see it specifically, in detail. So then it says;

1Tim 6:15  “which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
v. 16  who only hath immortality…”

I always thought that was speaking about Christ. But I’m thinking now, no, he’s talking about God. God only has immortality;

v. 16 “… dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see…”

Isn’t this talking about God, the Father? Well what does it matter?   
Well here’s the thing. Where does it say if somebody is able to have the title God, that you have to be eternal for that? I don’t know of any. 

There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He can’t die. But we are talking about a time when God ‘only’ had immortality. Where did Christ say He got His life? He got it from the Father (John 5:26).
v

[17] "For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world?" (Heb. 9:26).

Jesus clearly existed back then.

[18] This one might blow you away. How could God give birth, to a God? I guess you would say ‘a’ God, He is His Son, ‘a’ Son, ‘a’ God. How do you give birth to a God?
 
John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

Now we have always heard, that we know nobody has ever seen God the Father, heard His voice, seen His shape ever. The only begotten Son, He is the One who reveals who the Father is, right. The Concordant translates that “unfolds Him.” You know, unfolds - unravels who and what the Father is to humanity. Because the first part said, nobody has ever seen God. But here is the point I want to draw attention to, “the only Begotten Son,” Son is not in some manuscripts. The Greek "Theos" [God] is in the manuscripts.
 
Let me give you John 1:18  the Concordant version and some others.

a. "God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten GOD Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him" (Concordant Literal Version)

b. "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, Who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known" (New International Version).

c. "the only begotten Son, Who is God and close to the Father’s heart" (The New Testament in the Language of Today By William Beck).

d. "No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son Who is close to the Father’s heart" (New Revised Standard Version).

e. "No one has seen God at any time: An Only-Begotten God, The One existing in the bosom of the Father, He has interpreted Him" (Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible). Etc.

How about that. The only begotten God. Jesus Christ the only begotten God. Well He’s the firstfruit, right. When you read the Bible you read, “In the beginning,” but the word should be, “In beginning,” or “A beginning,” and not ‘the,’ it’s not there. “In a beginning, God - Elohim created the heavens and the earth.” Now Jesus Christ is the Firstfruit.
 
We just read, Heb 1:5 “For to which of the angels said He at any time, you art My Son, This day have I begotten you?” And we read over in verse 9, “Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy FELLOWS.”

But we are going to be His brothers. We have to be begotten too. Jesus Christ is the Firstfruit of them that slept(1 Cor 15 :20), the Firstfruit. James says we are a kind of Firstfruits (James 1:18). In Rev. 14, we read that the 144,000 are the Firstfruits. Do you know what it actually says in the Hebrew, in Genesis 1:1 “In Firstfruit God created the heaven and earth.” 

Who is the Firstfruit?  Jesus Christ!
“In Firstfruit, God created the heaven and the earth.”
“In Jesus Christ, God created the heaven and earth.”
v
 
[7] “For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

Everything, “all things” are out 'of ' God. The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist (to get out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS."  If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ 'from'? Is He some 'thing'? He is the grandest thing of all. “All things,” are ek ex from the Father. So where did Christ come from? It says “all things” are of or out of (ek ex) God. There is only one God, the Father, and we in Him. “And one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom” that means through or the channel of. There it is! 

Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God. But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why?  He’s the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity. Because God can’t come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn’t face Him either, it would have blown you away. But He emptied Himself. Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17) 

So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or by Jesus Christ, that He channeled everything that there is.
v
Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah/Elohim made earth and heaven.

Jehovah? Did they just slip that in there? Now in Genesis 1:1, Elohim created the heaven and the earth. In chapter 2, Jehovah/Elohim. So we have Elohim in chapter 1, now we have Jehovah/Elohim. 

I know I’m going to get this really out of sequence here, but I have to go with the flow as God inspires me. So I’ll just talk about it here. I mean we are being introduced here to what is really happening. But most people just don’t see it, they just don’t get it.

So we have God created. We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasn’t God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.

So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? It’s the ‘We’ and the ‘Us.’ Elohim is the ’We’ and the ’Us.’   So it’s BOTH!

v
Heb 1:3  who being the brightness of His glory (speaking of Jesus Christ) and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Okay back to verse 2.

Heb 1:2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son(God), whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He (who? God) made the worlds;

Who is the “by whom?” Jesus Christ. But who did it? God. How? Through Christ. So who did it? They both did it, that’s why it is Elohim. “In the beginning Elohim…” God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. It was out of God, through His Son. Both. They are both the One God. Well why does it introduce, here in chapter 2, that the heaven and the earth was created by Jehovah/Elohim? Because it’s letting us know who the Son is, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and all that.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2015, 02:11:00 PM »

For all those interested, here is a thread related to the topic at hand but beginning through different inquiry:

It appears Duane has a nack for stirring up this search. It's funny, God has a sense of humor for sure! ;)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14704.0.html

Another relavent thread that takes this same turn:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=15398.0

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:55:14 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

John from Kentucky

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2015, 03:53:18 PM »

JFk, I was just wondering if you would care to share a few of the scriptures that you feel were the most important keys to leading you to the understanding of the nature of God. I am not asking you to expound on them if you don't want to, as I know teaching is not allowed......just throw us a bone to chew on  ;)  thanks.

Hi Lauriellen,

The first baby step is to know how many Gods there are.  Most of those who think they follow Christ believe in three Gods: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  A much, much smaller group believe in two Gods: a Father God and a Jesus God.  Now both groups say they believe in one God, will cite Scriptures to explain their beliefs, and will get extremely angry with you if you say they worship more than one God.

The Scriptures teach there is only One God.  Below I have cited just a few Scriptures on this Nature of God/Enigma of God subject; they are only a small tip of the iceberg.

As always, there is only one way to understand the Scriptures, and that is by the Holy Spirit; no other way.

1 Cor 8:6   John 1:1   Gen 1:1  Proverbs 4:7   Deut 6:4   Colossians 1:15-17   2 Cor 4:4, last phrase

John 10:30   John 14:9   John 20:28   Titus 2:13   Isa 9:6   Isa 43:10, 11, 12   Isa 44:6 

Isa 45:6, 18, 22

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2015, 03:57:38 PM »

This email is AMAZING... wow. I really want to read that April 2nd message now. Sigh.

-----------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456
Email self explanatory.  Ray's comments will be in blue.

Let me make a few COMMENTS.......in your email.

Hi Ray, I hope this is a good day for you. I have been thinking a lot about the things you brought out in the last Bible study, really interesting stuff. I thought an email might be the best way to ask you about this, of course only if you feel like looking at it. I know you are studying this subject of 'the Father' and what He is and all, so it would not hurt my feelings at all if you do not feel like you can't go into this right now or do not have the time. But I will present this and if you find any point worth commenting on that would be nice.

I will start with this Scripture.

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
 
I understand that we have not heard the Father's voice, yet many did hear Christ and He represented the Father completely and was "the Word of God."

Rev 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

So is it wrong to think that when we hear Christ we are hearing the Father? Not literally, but in essence it is the Father?

COMMENT: Yes, of course, we hear the Father through Christ. Jesus is the "Word" as you point out, which is really the "expression," the "statement," and the "representative" of the Father. The meaning of "logos--word" is more than just a single word as we see defined in a dictionary, but historically represented the message of the messenger. Jesus is the Bridge between the spirit realm of God and the physical universe.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

I do want you to know that I realize that Christ is not the Father, and the voice that spoke at the baptism of Christ was not His (Jesus') own voice saying those things, it was "a voice," as you have stated before, of an angel/messenger.
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.

COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?

Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.

When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study.


John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

COMMENT: How could anyone believe this verse and yet believe that Jesus was just a "lucky Jew" who was chosen to be the lottery winner of the universe! Just believe God, live a few years of a sinless life, and this Jewish man will be given ALL THE POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH FOR ALL ETERNITY! We should all be so lucky! Nonsense! No mere mortal could EVER fill the shoes of God the Father and be given control (including all judgment of all humanity) of God's universe for all eternity. Jesus Christ was a billion times more than just a mere moral man! More later..........

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?

So I am wondering if the simple statement of fact "I and My Father are one" says it all?

COMMENT: Maybe not quit all, but pretty close once we understand all the facts and contexts of that statement.

Is the bond of oneness between the Father and Son such a perfect oneness of mind, that to hear or see Christ is to see or hear the Father, in essence anyway?

COMMENT: Yes, of course (I would leave off the phrase "in essence anyway").

So I'm wondering about the statement in Kings "Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You," isn't this the Father?

COMMENT: I Kings 8:27 does say "God--Elohim" in verse 27,  And we know that it is the "LORD--Jehovah" which Moses saw at Siani, therefore this is Jesus and not the Father. Besides, Deut. 10:14 states that the "heaven of heavens" are the "LORD'S thy God," and so again, that is Jesus.

Maybe He can't be brought down into a "shape" or a being,

COMMENT: But then again, maybe HE CAN!

so could it be that Jesus Christ was created to be the image of the Father to meet the need we (humanity) would have to 'see' God? So are we actually seeing the Father through Christ?

COMMENT: There is a problem here not only with tirinitarianism, but with most all other isms as well, if we try to make two Beings (or Persons, although I am not comfortable with the word person as its first definition is "a human being") out of the Father and Son, and that is, if Jesus is God and the Father is God, we then have TWO GODS and the Scriptures are plain that there is but "ONE GOD."

I use to think the word "Elohim" solved the problem, seeing that is plural for "El" which means "God" or the "Deity." After all didn't God (Elohim) say, "Let US...after OUR...." (Gen. 1:26)? Yet, but in Gen. 11 it was "the LORD--Jehovah, Jesus" Who said, "let US go down," not Elohim. Likewise, the Shema of Deut. 6:4 says: "Hear O Israel the LORD thy God is ONE LORD." It doesn't say that the "LORD thy God is one ELOHIM." No, it says "one LORD--YHWH." And YHWH is singular, not plural.

So according to Paul, the One God must be "the Father," not?

Didn't Paul say: "But to us there is but one God, THE FATHER" (I Cor. 8:6)? Yes, but once again, the sentence doesn't end there with a period (.), does it?

If we take out all the descriptive phrases we have this: "...there is one God, the Father...AND one Lord Jesus Christ..." Before everyone shouts "heresy," let me finish my research. What would happen if we were to replace the comma (,) after the word "Father" with a colon ( : )? "But to us there is but one God: the Father...AND the Lord Jesus Christ...." But wouldn't that mean then that the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (the two of Them) are ONE GOD? Yes of course, isn't that what John 10:30 says: "I AND My Father ARE ONE"?! There's much more to this, but I will save it till later.

COMMENT: I believe that Christendom has failed to teach us what it is that God the Father wants and desires FOR HIMSELF. Why did He make a "physical" universe? Was it only to have and bring children into His Kingdom? We really need to reconsider how much was involved in God acquiring the Wisdom necessary to build His universe and create a suitable Family for His Kingdom.

God be with you,
Ray
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lauriellen

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2015, 10:48:43 PM »

Thank you JFK. I have copied and pasted the scriptures you listed and will be reading and re-reading them. I confess that I can not  wrap my mind around this subject just yet......BUT.....a very wise friend gave me some great advice that I will share in the hopes that it may help someone else......he told me to:   READ AND BELIEVE.....even if you do not yet have the understanding, BELIEVE what is written.....and so, I believe in ONE God..I believe Jesus is our Lord and our God, the express image of the Father.....I still lack a complete understanding of it, but I believe it!....
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santgem

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Re: God means Placer
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2015, 05:49:25 AM »



[17] "For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world?" (Heb. 9:26).

Jesus clearly existed back then.

But we are going to be His brothers. We have to be begotten too. Jesus Christ is the Firstfruit of them that slept(1 Cor 15 :20), the Firstfruit. James says we are a kind of Firstfruits (James 1:18). In Rev. 14, we read that the 144,000 are the Firstfruits. Do you know what it actually says in the Hebrew, in Genesis 1:1 “In Firstfruit God created the heaven and earth.” 

Who is the Firstfruit?  Jesus Christ!
“In Firstfruit, God created the heaven and the earth.”
“In Jesus Christ, God created the heaven and earth.”
v
 
[7] “For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

Everything, “all things” are out 'of ' God. The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist (to get out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS."  If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ 'from'? Is He some 'thing'? He is the grandest thing of all. “All things,” are ek ex from the Father. So where did Christ come from? It says “all things” are of or out of (ek ex) God. There is only one God, the Father, and we in Him. “And one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom” that means through or the channel of. There it is! 

Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God. But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why?  He’s the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity. Because God can’t come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn’t face Him either, it would have blown you away. But He emptied Himself. Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17) 

So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or by Jesus Christ, that He channeled everything that there is.
v
Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah/Elohim made earth and heaven.

Jehovah? Did they just slip that in there? Now in Genesis 1:1, Elohim created the heaven and the earth. In chapter 2, Jehovah/Elohim. So we have Elohim in chapter 1, now we have Jehovah/Elohim.

So we have God created. We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasn’t God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.

So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? It’s the ‘We’ and the ‘Us.’ Elohim is the ’We’ and the ’Us.’   So it’s BOTH!

Heb 1:2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son(God), whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He (who? God) made the worlds;

Who is the “by whom?” Jesus Christ. But who did it? God. How? Through Christ. So who did it? They both did it, that’s why it is Elohim. “In the beginning Elohim…” God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. It was out of God, through His Son. Both. They are both the One God. Well why does it introduce, here in chapter 2, that the heaven and the earth was created by Jehovah/Elohim? Because it’s letting us know who the Son is, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and all that.




There are billions and billions and lots of people up to this date that really cannot understand the Secret of God, or maybe that is His Will to hide for the meantime. To those that given a wisdom and willing to receive the wisdom lucky and grace for them for they were given ahead as planned by God.

There is always a problem when Jesus Christ is mentioned in the creation. People are in instantly have one in mind that Jesus Christ in the flesh that these creations happened.

For those given a wisdom when the creation mentioned and Jesus associated in the creation, it is not Jesus in the flesh but Jesus who is the Word/Jehovah/YHWH that comes in their mind, that is the secret many cannot fathom.

Always remember that, Jesus is the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
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