> General Discussions
Did some demons escape the pit ?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on June 08, 2015, 11:32:33 AM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 09:26:44 AM ---Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."
2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.
I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]
Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.
Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.
--- End quote ---
The only place that tartaroo is mention in Scripture is there in 2 Peter 2:4, and Strong's has it G5020 Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades)... hades is the 'state' of being dead or having no perception or consciousnesses, I do not see that as being like a prison for angels.
There is a place that Scripture speaks of a prison or holding place for Satan and you know of it, the "bottomless pit" and that only occurs at the very end of this age.
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit(G12), and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Strong
G12 abussos - depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) “abyss”: - deep, (bottomless) pit.
Maybe Peter used that word "tartaroo" to show how utterly deplorable it is for pastors to abuse their position. But here is an email that speaks about what hades is, so therefore it should apply to tartartoo.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2899.0.html -----
Ray, I appreciate your time in covering these subjects.....My questions may center around terminology . With the spirit of the dead Jesus being with God and and with the body bring in hades (grave)
COMMENT: But hades is NOT the grave. Hades is the same as sheol in the Hebrew. It is the "state" of the dead, not the grave, or the location of the dead.
for the 3-3+days prior to resurrection, does the word soul have a meaning (during this period)?
COMMENT: Yes, of course, the word soul always has meaning. Does it have an "existence," however? No, that is why it is said to be in "hades" which means "imperceptible." There souls which IS PERCEPTION goes to IMPERCEPTION. Hence, it has no consciousness whatsoever.
Was the Spirit of Jesus a separate "consciousness" during this period?
COMMENT: The spirit HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD, he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Why do you assume hades should apply to Tartarus and not the bottomless pit? The bottomless pit is where satan is CHAINED so why not those angels that did not obey as well such as the cherubim who his cast out of the mountain of God? Peter says that those in tartarus are CHAINED similarly.
Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Now look at peter's statement:
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
So because strong assumes that everything in scripture is hell and heaven and relates Tartarus to hades in his definition based on ONE usage we should assume too that Tartarus is related to hades? I don't understand that and perhaps you can clarify for me. Then again maybe it is related to hades but my issue isn't so much with that as it is with Peter and Jude not necesssarily refering to physical human messengers as much as spiritual messengers who were not obedient. I don't want to necessarily argue about the nitty gritty of what exactly is Tartarus as it appears to be open to interpretation. My original point was more with the nature of those messengers.
God bless,
Alex
Gina:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 11:28:56 AM ---
--- Quote from: Gina on June 08, 2015, 10:16:22 AM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 08:28:02 AM ---Hi Gina,
You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
Where is it that all men end up?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.
Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)
Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.
Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.
Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)
Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)
Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.
God be with you,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you. You have no idea what you're talking about. Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.
Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned. Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.
--- End quote ---
Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned.
Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------
"On the day you were created, I placed you beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)
"In the day of your creation they established the anointed cherub’s booth. And I bestow you in the holy mountain of Alueim [God]" (Concordant Version of the Old Testament)
"With an anointed cherub as guardian I place you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire" (The New Revised Standard Version)
"With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones" (The New American Bible)
Two things should be abundantly clear from these translations: (1) These verses are certainly a challenge to translate, and (2) The prince of Tyrus was NOT the cherub, himself, but rather the cherub was placed as a guardian BESIDE OR WITH the prince of Tyrus. A further proof that the prince of Tyrus cannot be, himself this cherub, is found in the grammar. Where KJV translates, "Thou art the anointed cherub…" the word translated "Thou" is the Hebrew word "ath" which can be either a pronoun or the object of a verb. But in Ezek. 28:14, it can’t be a pronoun because it is not the same gender as "cherub." The Hebrew word ath is feminine while the Hebrew word kruwg translated cherub, is masculine.
WHAT ARE CHERUBS?
Aren’t cherubs those cut little cubby babies with tiny wings holding bows and arrows with which to shoot people in the heart and make them fall in love? Actually, they are not.
Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings. God placed cherubims at the garden of Eden to guard the way of the tree of life. Cherubim were carved and made of gold, then placed on the cover of the ark of the covenant. Their wings were to be outstretched over the ark casting a shadow over it. Their wings were to touch signifying that the divided messengers of God will ultimately be united into one. Also they were to face each other with their eyes looking down at the shadow-cast ark, signifying that they desire to look into these deep spiritual things, but can as yet not comprehend any more than the shadow.
"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).
They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:
"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).
It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).
There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.
"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).
Cherubim are associated with the mercy seat, the decorations of the tabernacle and later the temple, and are associated with the Throne of God in Ezekiel. The possibility that there is cherubim associated with the throne of world leaders also seem plausible. Whatever their earthly function, there was a cherub associated with the king of Tyrus. He was with or beside the king, but he was not the king, himself, neither was he Satan.[/u]
Next we read a remarkable thing in the KJV in the last part of verse 16 of Ezek. 28:
"By the multitude of thy [king of Tyrus] merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O COVERING CHERUB [??], from the midst of the stones of fire."
Wait just a minute. This is nonsense! God is going to destroy the king of Tyrus, not the SPIRIT CHERUB! Spirits can’t be destroyed. WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY HIS CHERUB WHEN IT IS THE KING THAT SINNED, NOT THE CHERUB?
The king wasn’t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don’t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn’t know the cherub.
etc..... See the article for more details.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Gina, I would really appreciate it if you don't throw such wild accusations as "you have no idea what you're talking about." You address a brother like that?
God be with you,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Alex, you're trying to pull a fast one, you are? This is what you said:
--- Quote ---Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.
Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)
Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)
Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.
--- End quote ---
You made it clear that you thought the "cherubs" were "evil spirits" and angels were "evil spirits" and the "CHERUB" was cast out.
Ray said:
--- Quote ---The king wasn’t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don’t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn’t know the cherub.
--- End quote ---
However, earlier you said:
--- Quote --- Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned. Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.
--- End quote ---
The King was cast out, NOT the cherub. The King was on the high mountain of God, therefore the King was a minister (angel) of God. And a FALSE one at that.
You're a sneaky one. I don't like your tactics at all. Well, it's like Ray said: YOU CAN'T CORNER A SNAKE IN A BRIAR PATCH!
Now, go do what you ALWAYS DO when you've completely screwed up: Go put a song up in the Light-hearted banter section or start another thread to bury the truth, as if you could. ha-ha!
This is my last reply to you, Alex.
Kat:
Well Alex, I began thinking tartaroo might also be the state of being dead, because it is defined as a part of hades, and since the word used as "angels" can be speaking of men or pastors, that fits into the whole passage of what Peter is speaking about. I have struggled looking at the passage for a long time, and that is the only way it really seems to make sense for me.
Besides 2 Peter and 1 Jude (that I believe is speaking of the same thing) there is no other mention of angels/spirits being held in prison in this age and there is no explanation anywhere in Scripture as to why this would be done. No, there's just Christ casting the devil (and his angels?) into the bottomless pit when He returns, nothing else about it being before that.
Anyway I do not hold this as a n absolute truth, no it's just my take on this at this time and have no desire to stir up contention because of it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Gina on June 08, 2015, 12:02:27 PM ---
The King was cast out, NOT the cherub. The King was on the high mountain of God, therefore the King was a minister (angel) of God. And a FALSE one at that.
You're a sneaky one. I don't like your tactics at all. Well, it's like Ray said: YOU CAN'T CORNER A SNAKE IN A BRIAR PATCH!
Now, go do what you ALWAYS DO when you've completely screwed up: Go put a song up in the Light-hearted banter section or start another thread to bury the truth, as if you could. ha-ha!
This is my last reply to you, Alex.
--- End quote ---
Gina,
First off, I quoted ray because you stated that ray taught Ezekiel 28:16 to be about men who sinned. I hope this is plainly evident now not to be the case.
Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee [King of Tyre] as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
No one is denying the King was cast off from the mountain of God. I'm talking about the Cherub who was placed beside the King of Tyre who was ALSO removed/destroyed FROM the mist of the stones of fire. Ray points out the same thing but his focus is the first part of the statement to prove that the King of Tyre and Cherub are two different beings. Both are being judged here though.
The rest of your accusations are as widly absurd and false as what I just exposed as innacurate.
Cherubim are similar in certain ways to spirits (As they are spirit beings), be they evil or good, and different in other's which I stated in my first address to Rick.
Ray identifies cherubim as messengers as well as spirit creatures and facing towards the mercy seat desiring to look into things. You can find that in the quote I gave you. An angel is nothing more than a messenger. Ray also said that these same messengers (cherubim) are divded, good on one side and, "wicked" is the term he uses, on the other. He surmises this from I Kings 22:19.
Just so you know, Peter himself calls the cherubim angels too.
------------------------------------------
"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).
They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:
"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).
it is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).
There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE
---------------------------------------
You are tottaly and completely out of line Gina.
In Christ,
Alex
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on June 08, 2015, 12:28:32 PM ---Well Alex, I began thinking tartaroo might also be the state of being dead, because it is defined as a part of hades, and since the word used as "angels" can be speaking of men or pastors, that fits into the whole passage of what Peter is speaking about. I have struggled looking at the passage for a long time, and that is the only way it really seems to make sense for me.
Besides 2 Peter and 1 Jude (that I believe is speaking of the same thing) there is no other mention of angels/spirits being held in prison in this age and there is no explanation anywhere in Scripture as to why this would be done. No, there's just Christ casting the devil (and his angels?) into the bottomless pit when He returns, nothing else about it being before that.
Anyway I do not hold this as a n absolute truth, no it's just my take on this at this time and have no desire to stir up contention because of it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I'm completely fine with leaving it open to interpretation. I do believe it to be a thing of very minor consequence and not worth contention. I was merely offering my perspective to rick on top of the other additions that were provided in my original address.
God bless,
Alex
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