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Did some demons escape the pit ?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 06:56:23 PM ---No Alex, he suffered those things first because he was out there preaching the Gospel. Shipwrecks, storms, etc. were NOT the works of this "messenger of Satan". INORDINATE BLOWS were. Read it again.
--- End quote ---
Hi Dave,
I thought the "blows" was those events? Are not each one of those a blow to paul? You mean paul was literaly beat over the head? O.o
From The article:
"Buffeting" comes from the Greek word kol aph iz’o = CHASTEN-FROM. It means: "to rap with the fist" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 43. Webster’s, buffet, (bufit) n. a blow. "A blow." Now where have we seen that before?
II Cor. 11:23--"...in blows inordinately..."
Again, Webster’s New World Dictionary, blow n. 1 a hard hit, as with the fist, 2 a sudden attack 3 a sudden calamity; shock.
Webster’s Twenteth-Century Dictionary gives us an even broader definition: buffeting, n. 1. A striking with the hands. 2. A succession of blows; strife; opposition; adversity.
So now we have a good idea of the meaning of this word "buffet"--A hard hit (especially to the face,) sudden attack, sudden calamity, shock, succession of blows, strife, opposition, and adversity. Why would Paul call all this pain and calamity "a splinter?" A splinter seems rather mild compared to the miseries that define buffet. That’s because Paul is not speaking of intensity when he speaks of a "splinter," but rather the incessantness of a splinter. The pain and aggravation is constant. It never goes away. It plagues one with every move until the splinter is removed.
The idiomatic expression "a splinter in my flesh" is still in popular usage. We alter it slightly to "a thorn in my flesh" or "a thorn in my side." We say things like: "Jack as been a thorn in my side ever since he came to work here."
The pain that Paul suffered from his hundreds of trials was obviously very intense. However, an analogy of a "splinter in the flesh" is not a description of intensity, but rather of its uninterrupted, nonstop, persistence. Paul suffered by buffeting for fourteen years PRIOR to his writing II Corinthians, and probably another eleven years after writing II Corinthians, seeing that God never did remove it from him ("Sufficient for you is My grace...").
Imagine twenty-five years of such suffering by being buffeted by a messenger of Satan. Why so much? Why so severe? Why so long?
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Ray seems to tie the "splinter in the flesh" of that paragraph I bolded which is directly related to the messenger of satan and his blows back to the many trials Paul suffered and would continue to suffer all his life. He says its not the intensity of them but rather the ever constant occurrence of those trials that makes them like a splinter in the flesh. He even says he suffered these things for fourteen years PRIOR to the writting of Cor II which you said was instead because of his preaching the gospel.
So are you sure?
God bless,
Alex
Dave in Tenn:
Just read it again. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
The way I read it there is a distinction between all of those other trials and the "inordinate blows/stripes" delivered by the Messenger of Satan. Shipwrecks are not storms. Beatings are not imprisonment. Inordinate blows are not occasional trials and troubles--all of those can happen to anybody, and do. "Inordinate blows" were the "splinter in the flesh" by the Messenger of Satan were in answer to the transcendence of his vision. That's not common to every Tom, Dick, and Mary.
"We are now left with just one category in a class all of its own. "... in blows inordinately ..." (Verse 23).
Only the trial of "blows" does Paul label "inordinately." Why? Is there something unique about this particular category of trial (blows?) Yes there is!"
I'm not suggesting that the other trials were ALL simply the result of 'bad misfortune'. Some have very much to do with his preaching. The Jews didn't beat him to rob him, after all. Some, on the other hand, were more common evils God intended for good to humble Paul and to test him. But they aren't the "inordinate blows/stripes" that are contrasted with the "abundance"/transcendence of the revelation that is his 'splinter in the flesh'.
Taken as a whole? Perhaps. Each a part of the whole? Maybe. But it still seems to me that these 'blows/stripes' (his 'splinter in the flesh'=messenger of Satan, given to him by God are in a category alone.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 07:15:42 PM ---Just read it again. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But the way I read it there is a distinction between all of those other trials and the "inordinate blows" delivered by the Messenger of Satan. Shipwrecks are not storms. Beatings are not imprisonment. Inordinate blows are not occasional trials and troubles--all of those can happen to anybody, and do. "Inordinate blows" by the Messenger of Satan were the result of the transcendence of his vision. That's not common to every Tom, Dick, and Mary.
--- End quote ---
Hi Dave,
I did read it again.
Ray's intro to all this seems to be setting up the opposite argument. He makes it clear the amount of trials paul suffered were not occasional let alone common to every body which made it all very bizarre and abnormal. Let me quote it for you here:
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PAUL’S BIZARRE LIFE
No one in the history of the world has ever lived a life as Paul did. Read II Cor. 11:22-28. Jails, blows, deaths, beatings, shipwrecks, stoning, and constant dangers of every kind, day after day, year after year, decade after decade! Who can comprehend such a life? Who could ever endure such a life? After the first scourging and the second shipwreck, I believe I would throw in the towel.
Some years ago, I meditated on the incredible hardships that Paul endured while taking the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations. Clearly, (in the relative world,) time and chance and circumstance would never produce the plethora of catastrophes Paul faced daily.
Imagine this. You return home from a three-day business trip to Puerto Rico. In shock, your wife greets your tattered body at the door. "What happened to you?" she asks.
"Well dear, after disembarking in Puerto Rico I was dragged back into an alley where several men beat and robbed me. They even took my clothing. I stumbled back to the main street in my underwear, where police promptly arrested me for indecent exposure. They took me to jail. After verifying my identity and passage on the ship, they let me go the next day. I acquired a new credit card at a local bank. A small clinic charged me $3500 to clean and bandage a few flesh wounds. I didn’t call you for fear you would panic.
I didn’t attend my business meetings. I lost a big account for my company. I went to the beach to relax and heal. The second day I took a swim and was stung by several jellyfish. I was again taken to a doctor. The third day I boarded ship to return to Miami. Midway home, the ship sank. There were sharks everywhere, but thank God, the Coast Guard arrived in a few hours."
All would agree, that that would be just "too much." Not for Paul, however.
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Ray seems to be arguing about the FREQUENCY with which Paul suffered these things. THAT was the inordinate (EXCESSIVE) blows. A blow can be a calamity. I always understood it as the reason Paul suffered so much the way he did was because that messenger was always there lurking and waiting to hit Paul with the next "blow." However, God used this to keep Paul humble for his revelation and much like Satan who destroyed almost everything Job had but could not claim Job's life, God did not allow the messenger to actually take Paul's life because God had plans for Paul.
Towards the bottom of the article ray states:
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We have to understand that Paul could not live normally, by just expecting a setback or trial from time to time as circumstances would allow. No. Paul traveled in foreign lands for years, fully conscious of the fact that this appointed messenger of Satan was always there, like a sniper in the dark, ready to suddenly pounce on Paul with blows of every description and severity of pain and agony. And how often did these things happen to Paul? Almost too often, and too much--INORDINATELY!
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Now I don't mean to mock dave at all, but what does blows of every description mean if not the various frequent trials of all sorts paul was experiencing? Does it mean a backhand to the face as opposed to the fist to the face as opposed to the palm to the face? I mean... again... i'm not trying to mock but I hope you see what I mean by not understanding the meaning of blows if it isn't the trials?
It Certainly makes sense to me for it to be the various calamities that befell Paul.
I agree that regardless of what the specifics of the blows were, the messenger of Satan is not common to everyone.
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
Hi Alex, I will say it really depends on what you believe/understand that an messenger of Satan is capable of. In my research I'm convinced that these spirits/demons or whatever they should be called, could indeed inflict literal blows... not that they became physical, but able to somehow project energy in a way to cause what could be felt and do some harm. And I believe that is what Paul was speaking of, being literally attacked by a spiritual entity. Just wanted to add that to this discussion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dave in Tenn:
Lest you think I'm just picking a theological bone, there aren't many of us who have suffered the things Paul suffered in a physical sense. But everyone who has heard and is obeying the last call of Jesus to "come out of her, my people" is experiencing to some degree this God-given, messenger of Satan, 'thorn in the flesh' in relationship with the 'transcendence/highness' of what we've been graced to 'see'. See my 'tagline/signature' below. We're told not to be surprised, and to rejoice. It may get worse before it gets better.
Paul went on to 'glory in his weakness'. Despite some folk's obsession with the negative, there is a definite up-side to weakness. God give us the faith and wisdom to see it, because everyone is going to live it.
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