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Did some demons escape the pit ?
lilitalienboi16:
Kat and Dave,
Excellent Additions from both of you on this matter and I will remain open minded to both perspectives regarding pauls splinter in the flesh. I see no harm in understanding it either way. I think the agreement is this messenger was evil but ultimately God used it for pauls benefit.
My point in bringing it up along with Ray's experiences (and thank you Kat for finding that audio reference) and other emails was merely to add greater depth to this discussion and remind everyone that not all demons are false doctrines and not all messengers/angels are literal human pastors/ false prophets.
There is a whole heavenly host like the sons of God who shouted for Joy, the morning stars which sang, cherubims, arch angels by name, messengers (angels), demons, evil spirits etc....
God bless,
Alex
Dave in Tenn:
Believe what you want. All I really want to ask of you is to let the words God inspired inform you, and not the 'topic' or doctrine 'about' demons. Hal Lindsey messed me up enough.
rick:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 08, 2015, 06:17:15 PM ---Hi Rick,
I feel like you're trading one extreme perspective for another. Yes, demons can be false doctrines, but they aren't only false doctrins. Ray once said that he had exercised out seven demons from a woman with the help of other church goers. The demons weren't very clever as they had simple names like, "Bok, Boook" etc... I can't find the specific audio where he goes into detail on that exercosim but he does reference it in an email below briefly.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
The reason I had posted this thread is because when I’m reading about these people who are possessed by demons in the gospel and remembering 2Pe 2:4 my initial thought was had some angles that kept not their first estate somehow become free and are these the ones who were possessing these people spoken of in the four gospels.
After reading all the replies given in this thread concerning demons and my understanding being contrary to those replies about what demons are I started thinking my understanding basically come from what I heard in Christendom and from horror movies I watch years ago and not from this website and was willing to let that understanding go but now this information you given about Ray dealing with demons assures me I was right in my thinking but now my understanding has expanded including false doctrine, teachers and false prophets also.
But still I would like to know if the angles who left their first estate are still chained there then who are these others that God has not chained in darkness until judgement ?
Perhaps my thinking is limited but if the angles ( messengers of God ) the ones that did not leave their first estate are still in God’s service and the angles that kept not their first estate are still bound and the only other living entities are we human beings and this should account for all living entities then who are these who possess people ? :-\
lilitalienboi16:
Sure Rick, not a problem. I've quite enjoyed the thread to be honest. I think its great to discuss these things. Iron sharpens Iron.
I can't tell you what to believe. There is a ton of scripture on this and there really isn't any nailing it down one way or another. Like I said, you can't be so rigid in your thinking. Peter didn't say ALL the angels that left their fist estate are chained. You also have to consider Kat and Gina's perspective too that these angels are nothing more than human messengers. I gave you a good example in the old testatement with the cherubim that God banished from among the fiery stones. There is a huge heavenly host. Ray talks about it being devided with good cherubim one one side and the wicked cherubim on the other. There are arch angels. There are evil spirits of which examples exist in the OT of them which could include wicked cherubim or demons because "evil spirits" is very non specific.
Like I said, Jude and Peter may have been quoting a book that no longer exists. Much like the book of Jasher in the old testament which does not exist for us anymore but is cited in Samuel.
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
2 Samuel 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)
The book of Samuel the seer as well as the book of nathan the prophet.
1 Chronicles 29:29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,
2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
Visions of Iddo the Seer....
2 Chronicles 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
This account from Jude is no where to be found in the scripture we have as well...
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
And the list goes on.
So these kinds of information we don't have now because God simply does not want us to have them for whatever reason. Some things may very well remain obscure until the resurrection or beyond but eventually all will be made clear. I think there is enough to establish some basic principles about the spiritual realm but also enough obscurity for us to have some disagreements.
Have some peace of mind my brother, none of us knows all these things, we see in part through a murky glass.
God bless,
Alex
Gina:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on June 08, 2015, 08:19:41 PM ---Lest you think I'm just picking a theological bone, there aren't many of us who have suffered the things Paul suffered in a physical sense. But everyone who has heard and is obeying the last call of Jesus to "come out of her, my people" is experiencing to some degree this God-given, messenger of Satan, 'thorn in the flesh' in relationship with the 'transcendence/highness' of what we've been graced to 'see'. See my 'tagline/signature' below. We're told not to be surprised, and to rejoice. It may get worse before it gets better.
Paul went on to 'glory in his weakness'. Despite some folk's obsession with the negative, there is a definite up-side to weakness. God give us the faith and wisdom to see it, because everyone is going to live it.
--- End quote ---
Hi, Dave
"My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong."
Power is perfected in weakness. How could we ever see Christ's power coming through a "strong" person? Paul as the pharisee Saul was pretty sure of himself and "weaknesses and insults and persecutions and distresses" were not on his "glory wall" of achievements.
The fact that Paul, as egotistical as he used to be, was now glad to go through all that in order to be able to spread the good news,
And the fact that he had still had powers from his days as a pharisee, but put them to the side and did not rely on them at all to "save himself," tells me he was not lying about what and Who he saw. He, like Christ, had a lot of power as a pharisee and he could have called all that off and chucked everything to the side. But he was so convinced of what he saw in that third heaven state he was in, he took all the distress and weaknesses and basically said, meh~ Wow.
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