Hebrews 12:15-17?

[Sparrowvision]

Just wondering if Ray ever commented on these verses? Can someone direct me? Thanks

[Nelson Boils]

Doubt it.I typed the scripture in the search box and nothing much came up.What is it exactly that you would like to know about the verse?Perhaps the guys can help you through a "discussion."

[Sparrowvision]

Nelson.....I've been reading various commentaries on these verses and opinions differ on their meaning.As I respect Ray's interpretation of scripture just wanted to compare.It might be construed that it may become too late to find forgiveness (not my opinion). I think the genuineness of the repentance is the issue.The warning seems to be dire and to the church.Is it maybe about loss of election? I too searched for Ray's comments but could find nothing. Thanks for reply. Paul

[Kat]

Hi Paul, I searched again and did find something.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------------------

FROM GLORY TO GLORY

There is a progression in the rewards promised to the conquering overcomers in the Churches that is vital for us to see and understand. If one is "saved" (past tense, finished, completed, with absolutely no possibility of losing that salvation at any time before we die), then there are indeed some Scriptural contradictions to such a theory.

We need to get very serious for a moment. Salvation culminates for the believer in the First Resurrection to spiritual life and immortality. However, before that time, during the life of each believer, there are warnings in the Scriptures about ways that one can become disqualified from being in the first resurrection. Let's notice just a few of them:

"Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed LEST HE FALL" (I Cor. 10:12).

"If they should FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance..." (Heb. 6:6), and

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of JUDGMENT and fiery indignation [the lake of fire] which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb. 10:26-27).

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are FALLEN FROM GRACE" (Gal. 5:4).

"Looking diligently lest any man FAIL OF THE GRACE of God..." (Heb. 12:15).

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY" (Luke 8:13).

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first..." (II The. 2:3).

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should A CASTAWAY [Gk: disqualified]" (I Cor. 9:27).

"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:1).

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING [before they were converted]. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, TO TURN FROM the holy commandment delivered unto them" (II Peter 2:20-21).

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough [having begun to follow Christ] and looking back [desiring his old sinful life again] IS FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD" (Luke 9:62).
Don't think that these verses were written in vain. Jesus said that "many" would say to Him in that day, "Lord, Lord...," but Jesus will tell them to "depart." It is not enough to accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour and go no further. You must continue growing spiritually. We must CONTINUE following Christ all the days of our life.
-----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Those who are the Elect were chosen by God before Creation.  If you are one of the Elect, then you will be saved at the 1st Resurrection because God will do it.  It is not based upon our works but by the grace of God, Who will see that we are saved.

Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.  2 Tim 1:9

On the other hand, if one is not one of the Elect, then one will not be saved at the end of this age, no matter what kind of good works one does.  It is not dependent on us, but upon God.

But the good news is that no matter when, all will be saved.  No one will be left out.  All will be blessed and become children of God.

Paul wrote in Galatians that the gospel is that through the Seed (Jesus) all nations shall be blessed.  Gal 3:8,16

[Ian 155]

Just wondering if Ray ever commented on these verses? Can someone direct me? Thanks

V 18 on explains ...underlines mine

first v 20 (they)

Heb 12:20 For they did not carry out the assignment: And if a wild beast should come in contact with the mountain, it shall be pelted with stones."


Heb 12:18  You have not come to a place that can be seen and touched, like the mountain the people of Israel saw, which was burning with fire and covered with darkness, gloom, and storms.
Heb 12:21  What they saw was so terrible that Moses said, "I am shaking with fear."
Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to a place where thousands of angels have gathered to celebrate.
Heb 12:23  You have come to the meeting of God's firstborn children. Their names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all people. And you have come to the spirits of good people who have been made perfect.
Heb 12:24  You have come to Jesus--the one who brought the new agreement from God to his people. You have come to the sprinkled blood that tells us about better things than the blood of Abel.

Do we believe Christ carried out the assignment and will not fail

[Kat]

Nelson.....I've been reading various commentaries on these verses and opinions differ on their meaning.As I respect Ray's interpretation of scripture just wanted to compare.It might be construed that it may become too late to find forgiveness (not my opinion). I think the genuineness of the repentance is the issue.The warning seems to be dire and to the church.Is it maybe about loss of election? I too searched for Ray's comments but could find nothing. Thanks for reply. Paul

Hi Paul, you can be as sincere as you can be ( I think many in the church are), but YOUR sincerity/genuineness can not save you, it's the Holy Spirit indwelling. Salvation is not based on "works," the world has plenty of that, but the Spirit of Christ certainly will do works in His elect.

James 2:14  What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
v. 15  If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
v. 16  and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
v. 17  Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
v. 18  But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Ray explains this very well in 'Do James And Paul Contradict?' Biblestudy July 2007.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Nelson Boils]

Sparrow,remember that during your walk with Christ you will fall at times.

Proverbs 24:16-for a righteous man falls 7 times,and rises up again,but the wicked are overthrown by calamity.

Job 5:19-He will deliver you in six troubles,yes,in seven there shall no evil touch you.