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Author Topic: Prayer  (Read 2393 times)

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Rolihlahla

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Prayer
« on: June 28, 2015, 01:20:35 PM »

Jeremiah 7:16-"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them...,for i will not listen to you."
Jeremiah 11:14-"Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them,because i will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress.

I notice Christ didn't pray for God to protect the wicked from the evil one.He only prayed that their sin(s) be forgiven.  Even Paul asked "May it not be held against them."(2 Tim 4:16)

If we pray for their well being,or ask God to bless the wicked,would we be guilty of sharing in their wicked work?Would we be guilty of welcoming them into our hearts?Because we have:
2 John 1:10-11"...,do not take him into your house or welcome him.Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work."

Is,"forgive them Father for their sins" the only way to pray for the wicked?
When paul says:"May it not be held against them,"what is he actually asking God?
Or when Jesus said:"Father forgive them."
Are they asking,"they," don't get punished for their sins?That,"they," get a free pass?

A lot of questions in there,thoughts are welcomed!
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Extol

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 10:34:39 AM »

Hi Nelson,

Before I understood the salvation of all, I would often pray for pro athletes. I'm a sports fan, and I would pray for the salvation of my favorite players. I thought it would be so sad if they had this great God-given talent and brought me so much entertainment and happiness, only to end up in hell.  :-X

I don't think there is anything wrong with praying for wicked people--Paul urged Timothy to pray for kings and those in authority (1 Tim. 2:2)--but we shouldn't pray for God to bless their wicked works. Paul urged Timothy to pray for leaders so a) they could lead a mild and quiet life in devoutness (i.e., not get all worked up and stressed about what the leaders are doing: "I can't believe what Obama is doing, GOSH what an idiot!") and because b) it is ideal and welcome in the sight of God, who will have all men be saved. We don't have to pray for them to prosper on earth, or even pray for them to be politically wise; but we can pray for their salvation, and we know God will answer that prayer.  ;)
 
The passage in 2 John I take to mean "do not take him into you [spiritual] house..." Some here may disagree with me, but I don't think there's anything wrong with having an unbelieving friend over to your house to watch football or play board games. And I don't think John is talking about unbelievers in general. He is talking about those "not remaining in the teaching of Christ" (2 John 9....the verse right before the ones you quoted.) Don't let that person into your house. If somebody leaves our fellowship and starts teaching another Christ (as has been known to happen) and tries to drag you down that road, DON'T GO THERE. If you play tennis with an unbeliever, that's not "sharing in his wicked work." But if a heretic gives you his teaching and you say "Thanks, be well, rejoice!" you're sharing in that evil teaching.

"...all forsook me. May it not be held against them." (2 Tim. 4:16). I don't have any evidence for this, but I wonder if the "them" here is people who later stood with Paul. Earlier in the chapter, he names Demas as one who forsook him (same Greek word), "having loved this present world" (v. 10). Then he names Alexander who did him much evil: "the Lord reward him according to his works" (v 14). Obviously not the same as the ones who forsook Paul, for whom he prayed "do not hold it against them." Maybe they later became more courageous and stood with Paul (like the disciples who forsook Jesus but later became bold proclaimers of the Gospel.)

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do" is one of the spurious passages on Tischendorf's list (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.msg53239.html#msg53239), which I find intriguing...

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Ian 155

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2015, 06:53:25 AM »

Luke 6:27 But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you."
Luke 6:28 Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you.

Rom 12:21 Be not conquered by evil; but conquer evil with good.

Pro 25:21 If one hating you is hungry, give him bread to eat, And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink,

Pro 25:22 For you will be banking embers on his head, And Yahweh Himself shall repay you."
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Rolihlahla

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2015, 09:57:47 AM »


But I wonder what is the meaning behind,"forgive them" or us asking God to forgive our enemies-Are we asking God to not punish or chastise them for what they did?Are we asking God not hold a grudge against them?Is it even foolish to think God can hold a grudge against his enemies?

I don't think it is wrong to pray for our enemies,but I've wondered about the "forgive" them.Why are you asking God to forgive them?When one prays:"Father forgive the terrorists for attacking us"-What are they actually asking for?
Suppose this is one of those tough questions!

----------------

That Tischendorf's list sure is long.Is he legit?Suppose he is,otherwise he wouldn't have been recommended on the forum.
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Extol

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2015, 10:34:32 AM »

Hi Boils,

It's important to remember that forgiveness does not mean there are no consequences for the sin. It does not give us a free pass to sin. Here is how "forgive" is defined by the Merriam-Webster dictionary: "to stop feeling anger toward someone; to stop blaming". That is all. The transgressor still has to repent and be cleansed, even if God (or the person) does not feel angry toward him.

There were a few times in my childhood when I received a spanking for misbehavior. My mom may have been angry with me for a short while, but the anger did not last. She forgave me, and loved me. But I still had to get spanked by my father when he got home from work.

Here is some more on this subject, from Ray. I've highlighted some of the points that are most pertinent to our discussion.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

Repent means to turn around, to go the other way. Whatever you are doing that’s wrong and sinful and evil and carnal and worldly and everything else, you turn around, you 'repent' and you go the other direction. The scriptures mention a couple of words:

Matthew 18:3     talks about being converted
Matthew 19:28   talks about being regenerated
1Peter 1:3         talks about being born again
John 3:3            talks about being born again

What are all those things? They’re all one and the same, there’s no difference. Being begotten anew, being born again, being regenerated, being converted. They are all the same and this is what we all want to do so that we can take on more knowledge and live more Godly, and reach this goal.

We all sin. Sin has to go through three things: cleansing, repentance, forgiveness. Does anybody know the order of these things?

This is the order of what happens to sin:

1.   Forgiveness
2.   Repentance
3.   Cleansing

God does not cleanse anybody of sins they haven’t repented of.

Forgiveness comes first! Isn’t that interesting. Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and why was He slain? Why did Christ die? The scriptures say Christ died for our sins. That’s the simplest statement, but there is a little bit more.

I want you to notice this, I’m going to give you what happened BEFORE the Cross... AT the Cross... and AFTER the Cross.

BEFORE the cross in Matthew 26 where Christ gave the symbols of the blood and the wine he says:

Matthew 26:28 for this is My blood that is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Remission just means forgiveness or pardon. Your sins are remitted, forgiven, pardoned. 

But this He told them at the Passover, 'before' he was crucified. That IF they partook of this symbol, “this is the blood of the covenant that is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Were the Apostles converted yet?  No, they weren’t even converted. But they are going to take these symbols, which show forgiveness! That’s 'before' the cross.

AT the cross. Christ is hanging on the cross dying and He looks down to those who put Him up there and he says “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” Did they repent?  No.  Were they cleansed of their sins?  No.  But Jesus Christ forgave them. He forgave them! 

AFTER the cross Jesus met with the disciples in Luke 24 and he said this:

Luke 24:47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Now that doesn’t change the order, because He said repentance and remission. We know that the sins are; 1) first remitted and 2) then people repent and 3) then they are cleansed. So it was 'after' the cross that even the apostles and the disciples really repented. We know that they repented, because on the day of Pentecost. There were about 120 of them gathered together and they all received the gift of the Holy Spirit, which was proof that they were repentant and converted to God.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2289.0.html

Dear Robert:
Jesus DIED: "...for the ungodly" (Rom. 5:6);  "...unto sin" (Rom. 6:10);  "...for our sins" (I Cor. 5:3);  "...for all" (II Cor. 5:15);  "...for us" (I Thes. 5:10, but nowhere does it say He died for our judgment or for our forgiveness.  Christ was judged for nothing.  We are not "considered judged" as though it happened in the past at the cross and therefore has no more place in our life.  Likewise, Jesus did not die for our "forgiveness."
 
Long after the crucifixion and cross of Jesus, Peter tells us that "Judgment begins [yet, still] at the house of God...." (I Pet. 4:17).   We must yet, still REPENT of our sins and CONFESS them (I John 1:8-9).  Christ's death on the cross did not and does not adjudicate as innocent, ALL ARE GUILTY SINNERS.
Jesus paid the penalty for all sin at the cross:  He did not make all sinners SAINTS at the cross.  Hence, we all need judging.
God be with you,
Ray   

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4490.0.html

    Dear William:  I have never ever say that "everyone is already saved," but I have said many many times "NO ONE is already saved."  No one is actually and literally saved until the Spiritual resurrection of the Elect of God (I Cor. 15:-42-54).  God counts things that ARE NOT as thought they WERE (Rom. 4:17). And so, although not all individuals have as yet been forgiven of their sins, in God's mind the end of His plan to save all is already a fact. Jesus plainly says that if we do not forgive others of their sins, NEVER WILL GOD FORGIVE US (Matt. 6:14-15). But God knows that eventually (in the resurrection to Judgment), all will forgive others their sins and therefore God will also forgive them. Hope this helps your understanding.
    God be with you,
    Ray
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Kat

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2015, 11:10:20 AM »


Another point is that Christ had to fulfill all prophecy concerning Him.

Isa 53:12  Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Luke 23:34  And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." And they cast lots to divide his garments.

None of those involved could have really and truly understood exactly what they were doing... I mean could they really? But just like with Judas there had to be those that were so deceived that they could carrier out the most heinous act in all of human history, to kill their own Creator.

1Cor 2:8  None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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repottinger

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2015, 12:31:31 AM »

Thanks for the great excerpts from Ray's talk, Extol, especially the part regarding the order of what happens when we sin (God's forgiveness, repentance, and then cleansing). I don't know if it's just me, but it seems that a lot of great talks and writings by Ray have been posted lately!
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 01:48:04 AM by repottinger »
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Extol

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 09:56:34 AM »

Thanks for the great excerpts from Ray's talk, Extol, especially the part regarding the order of what happens when we sin (God's forgiveness, repentance, and then cleansing). I don't know if it's just me, but it seems that a lot of great talks and writings by Ray have been posted lately!
Sincerely,
Randy

You're welcome, Randy. There are thousands of pages of Ray's writings on this site, and the answers to many of our questions are contained therein. And really, that is why we're here at this forum: to discuss what we've learned here. There are ten thousand other religious forums on the Internet for us to visit if we want to speculate and debate. Besides helping us find answers to questions, it's always nice going through Ray's old writings because there is so much spiritual treasure for us, right there for the taking.  8)
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repottinger

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2015, 01:16:49 AM »

Yes, I agree with you, Extol, and I have that re-confirmed continually as I search the site!
Sincerely,
Randy
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 01:48:37 AM by repottinger »
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Rolihlahla

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2015, 05:31:07 PM »

According to the list,Matt5:22 "without cause" shouldn't be there.

Psalm 35:7-has "without cause"
Psalm 35:19-has "without cause"
Psalm 109:3 also has "without cause"

Is it possible that the above statements shouldn't also be in Psalms?

Whoa!!So Christ didn't pray "Father forgive them,for they know not what they do"-Interesting
Whaaaat!!The story of the adulterous woman on John 8:1-11 also doesn't exist,it was made up.

I saw a thread about the statements "under the earth."Someone didn't understand what is meant by "under the earth"-anyway according to this list,Rev 5:3 and Rev 5:13 both have "under the earth" and they shouldn't be there.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 05:33:48 PM by Nelson Boils »
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repottinger

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2015, 05:38:39 PM »

Fascinating, isn’t it, Nelson—how so many verses that so many of us have read for years (or most of our lives in some cases) and believed to be a part of the Scriptures were, apparently, later additions and not in the original texts? Regarding the phrase “without cause,” it’s only a guess, but maybe, rather than that it shouldn’t have been included in those Psalms, instead it was added to the verse in Matthew because it was in the verses in Psalms in the first place. And maybe the same thing applies to the phrase “under the earth” in those verses from Revelation—maybe it was later added to them due to its original presence in the Philippians verse or possibly some verses from the Old Testament. Just a thought.
Sincerely,
Randy
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 08:56:29 PM by repottinger »
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Extol

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2015, 07:44:47 PM »

Nelson,

I don't know if there is a "spurious passages" list of OT verses, but I don't see why "without cause" shouldn't be in the psalms you listed. Jesus is not quoting those psalms in Matt. 5:22. 
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Rolihlahla

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2015, 02:06:30 PM »

I've heard the argument-How can one be angry at a brother "without a cause?"

So I thought if that is the case,then I could apply the same arguments to those Psalms.On Psalms 35:7,I could also say how can "they have hidden a net" "without a cause?"There has to be a cause aint it?

Nothing big though,something I was just wondering!
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“You offer assistance to the impious, and you are joined in friendship with those who hate the Lord. And for this reason, you certainly deserve the wrath of the Lord."

Rolihlahla

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2015, 02:21:48 PM »

Is there a scripture that shows how Jesus prayed for his enemies?To those who were persecuting him?
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Nathan

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2015, 03:15:10 PM »

Quote
Is there a scripture that shows how Jesus prayed for his enemies?To those who were persecuting him?

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.



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Rolihlahla

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2015, 04:08:01 PM »

Nathan,

Apparently those words are not in the original manuscripts.Apparently it is a spurious passage.Check out the link Extol shared
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2015, 07:35:33 PM »

Is there a scripture that shows how Jesus prayed for his enemies?To those who were persecuting him?

Listen to this audio: http://bible-truths.com/audio/love.mp3
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Rolihlahla

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Re: Prayer
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2015, 06:25:15 PM »

Thanks for the audio.I see that Ray quoted Luke 23:34.Was he aware that this verse is spurious?
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