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Gods elect.
rick:
How is it that the elect while in this life still sin, however at the appearing of Christ they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye an sin no more ?
Ray said that God cannot instill virtue in a person but must be taught by overcoming some form
of evil, if that is the case then how is it possible for Christ to instill anymore virtue in the elect
at His appearing if virtue must be taught by overcoming some form of evil ?
We know Christ said to a certain pharisee that he will not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come but we do know he will be eventually forgiven and I assume there will be a certain percentage born in the next age that will end up in the age after the next age undergoing the lake of fire.
If Christ can change the elect in the twinkling of an eye why not change everyone at the end of this age in the twinkling of an eye ? Not that He’s going to, just curious.
Gina:
Rick,
It's been well established that the elect don't sin willfully. They're in corruptible bodies and working out their salvation with fear and trembling (because it is God who works in you to will and to do...).
Why are the elect changed in the twinkling of an eye? Maybe I'm crisscrossing segments of the scriptures, but I thought Ray said that we have no consciousness of the state of death, and so at the last trump we are raised (resurrected/woken up) it will seem as though we closed our eyes (at death/sleep) one minute and opened then the next. Haven't you ever been under anesthesia? Or had a really good nap and woke up three hours later thinking you'd only been sleeping for a minute?
As for why the elect are transformed, well, it's the promised gift of eternal life only for those who are (dragged to Christ by the Father) and learn to trust in God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The wicked, unbelieving, disobedient, whoever... are paid wages of death:
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The elect receive their prize laid up for them: the crown of glory.
The unbelievers, etc., are cast into the Lake of Fire.
The reason God doesn't change everybody in an instant is because what would be learned? That we could be made instantly perfect? Wow! How unexciting is that? LOL We have to learn and suffer as Christ learned obedience through the things that He suffered. Who wants to be last? Who wants to sell everything they have and give their money to the poor? These are things that takes years of learning to overcome.
Besides you have to believe God exists and the wicked and unbelievers don't. They doubt all the time and so in that state of mind they can't expect would receive anything from God because...they don't believe God exists.
Besides, the wicked and unbelieving wouldn't know what to do with the gift once they got it -- they'd have no experience at trusting God or knowing how He operates. These things takes years of hard work. The carnally minded, the wicked and unbelieving don't like the sound of that because they are lazy and pretentious and want everything to come easy, like a bunch of misbehaved, uneducated spoiled brats. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
Did you read that post I put up where Ray said that we would all become God (perfect) once we could prove that we could handle the power?
Gina:
PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
This is a rather involved study that I have only a short time to touch upon at this time. I realize that this will probably (as always) raise even more questions in other areas. Please don’t try to speculate yourself in unscriptural solutions to these potential mysteries. I must stay focused on those studies which I deem most import for our site at this time, and don’t have the time to be side-tracked too often.
There are few places in the Old Testament where a resurrection of dead people are mentioned or alluded to. Jesus stated that the declaration, “Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read that which is declared to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living” (Matt. 22:31).
This statement proves that if God is the “God of the living,” but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead when Jesus mentions them, then there has got to be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The major prophecy concerning the resurrection is found in Ezek. 37. Here we are shown a valley of “dry bones” which God says represents “the WHOLE House of Israel” -- “And He said unto me, `Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; lo, they are saying: Dried up have our bones, And perished has our hope, We have been cut off by ourselves” (Ezek. 37:11).
So the whole House of Israel dies in a condition of being “perished” with no “hope,” and are “cut off.” But what does God tell Ezekiel He will do for them?
I am prophesying, and lo, a rushing, and draw near do the bones, bone unto its bone."
Eze 37:8 “And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.] has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."
I know of no “spiritual” tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical “bones” to remake a “spiritual” man. This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 “And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force” (Ezek. 37:10).
Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then “stand on their feet.” This is the exact and precise definition of the word “resurrection.” It means to “stand up” upon one’s feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being “spiritual” or “immortal” whatsoever. Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ’s resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.
Nowhere are the wicked promised immortality or incorruption, nowhere. The most thorough study on the resurrection of the saints is found in I Corinthians. Let’s notice a few things that most overlook:
Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world? The salvation of the wicked? The resurrection of the wicked? NO. Let’s read it:
“Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, ‘brethren’] I declare unto YOU the gospel…” (I Cor. 15:1).
“…by which also YOU are saved…” (Verse 2).
“For I delivered unto YOU….” (Verse 3). Etc.
What is the “order” of the resurrection of which Paul speaks? “But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at His coming” (Verse 23).
The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of “they that are CHRIST’S,” not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment. Pay attention TO THE WORDS!
1Co 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God “inheriting the Kingdom of God. Is the act of raising the wicked from the dead and act of their “inheriting the Kingdom of God?” I think not. Will the wicked then “inherit incorruption” at their resurrection? Well many say “YES, yes they will.” NO, no they WON’T! Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most “corruptible” men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are “incorruptible?” Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that “corruption” (as in the above named persons) does NOT “inherit incorruption?”
We are told that a seed must die to give life to a new seed, or grain, or body (Verse 36).
What KIND of new seed comes about from planting a seed that first must die? 1Co 15:37 “And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain”
Are we told what the “other” grain might be that sprouts like “wheat?” Yes, as a matter of fact, we are: Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
And are these “tares” also gathered into the barns (brought into the Kingdom of God)? NO, Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest [resurrection] I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles [different ‘groups’ at different ‘burnings’?] to burn them [in the Lake of Fire]: but gather the wheat into my barn [My KINGDOM].
NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up “immortal and incorruptible.”
What else do we learn about the resurrection of God’s Elect? What are some of the features of their newly resurrected bodies?
“…but the glory of the celestial [high, above, heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [worldly, EARTHLY] is another” (Verse 40).
Which category do the Elect come in? Now pay attention: 1Co 15:48-49 As is the earthy, such ARE they also that ARE earthy: and as is the heavenly, such ARE they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, WE SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly.
Notice that ONLY “we” [God’s Elect], not “they,” “…shall bear the image of the heavenly.” Paul is speaking that “THEY, the earthy,” and “WE, the heavenly,” and only the “we” will “bear the image of the heavenly,” not “they,” the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake of Fire.
Now we can understand verse 50 in proper context: Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [corrupt men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Saddam Hussein] inherit incorruption.
The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those “WE [who] have borne the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly.” And this happens at a specific time:
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory” (I Cor. 15:51-54).
It is the “we” and the “us” that will be changed at the last trump, not the “they” and the “them.”
Should Mao, Adolph, and Saddam be resurrected to incorruptible and immortal bodies, then death would also be “swallowed up in victory” in THEIR LIVES ALSO. How could they go through the “second DEATH” if “death” would have already been “swallowed up in VICTORY” in their miserable, wicked, vile, and deranged carnal minds? Such people know nothing of “the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus.” They know only of “law of SIN AND DEATH” (Rom. 8:2).
Notice these verses describing the resurrection of God’s elect:
1Co 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
INCORRUPTION: Strong’s #861, aphtharsia, “from #862 [un-decaying]; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: immortality, incorruption, sincerity.”
Note: INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY
GLORY: Strong’s #1391, doxa, G1391 From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honor, praise, worship.
Note: GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP
POWER: Strong’s #1411, dunamis, From G1410; “force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.”
Note: FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKIER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH, (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK
SPIRITUAL: Strong’s #4152, pneumatikos From G4151; “non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual.
Note: NON-CARNAL ETHEREAL (as opposed to gross or daemoniacally) SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
Now let’s foolishly assume that the wicked are going to be resurrected with “spiritual” bodies. The only place in Scripture that anyone is said to be resurrected with a “spiritual body,” is in these many references in I Cor. 15. So if a resurrected “spiritual body” applies to the unjust and the wicked and the unbelievers, then these attributes which constitute a “spiritual body” resurrection MUST APPLY TO THEM ALSO. Now then, show me one Scripture anywhere that justifies people like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein being resurrected with:
INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH, (‘violence’ only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
Is there anywhere a Scripture that presents the resurrection of the wicked in such a glorious, and holy, divine light? I think not. Rather we are presented with this as the characterization of the resurrected wicked to eonian judgment:
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [eonian] life, and some to shame [rebuke, reproach, disgrace] and everlasting [eonian] contempt [repulsion, aversion, abhorrence].
Is it possible to have a greater contradiction of character traits than this? No, those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies. It’s unscriptural nonsense as far as I can see. Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
Gina:
Sorry, one more thought.
I was just thinking how a certain fanatical "religious" group goes around blowing themselves up and everyone around them because they believe that they will be immediately ushered into some kingdom afterlife where they'll be rewarded for their "faithfulness to Allah" and as a payment for their "sacrifice" receive all these wives and all this food or some junk like that. It's so retarded. They actually believe that they've done God a service.
Isaiah 59 Their feet run to evil, And they hasten to shed innocent blood; Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity, Devastation and destruction are in their highways. 8They do not know the way of peace, And there is no justice in their tracks; They have made their paths crooked, Whoever treads on them does not know peace.
rick:
--- Quote from: Gina on July 16, 2015, 06:27:18 PM ---Rick,
It's been well established that the elect don't sin willfully. They're in corruptible bodies and working out their salvation with fear and trembling (because it is God who works in you to will and to do...).
Why are the elect changed in the twinkling of an eye? Maybe I'm crisscrossing segments of the scriptures, but I thought Ray said that we have no consciousness of the state of death, and so at the last trump we are raised (resurrected/woken up) it will seem as though we closed our eyes (at death/sleep) one minute and opened then the next. Haven't you ever been under anesthesia? Or had a really good nap and woke up three hours later thinking you'd only been sleeping for a minute?
As for why the elect are transformed, well, it's the promised gift of eternal life only for those who are (dragged to Christ by the Father) and learn to trust in God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The wicked, unbelieving, disobedient, whoever... are paid wages of death:
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The elect receive their prize laid up for them: the crown of glory.
The unbelievers, etc., are cast into the Lake of Fire.
The reason God doesn't change everybody in an instant is because what would be learned? That we could be made instantly perfect? Wow! How unexciting is that? LOL We have to learn and suffer as Christ learned obedience through the things that He suffered. Who wants to be last? Who wants to sell everything they have and give their money to the poor? These are things that takes years of learning to overcome.
Besides you have to believe God exists and the wicked and unbelievers don't. They doubt all the time and so in that state of mind they can't expect would receive anything from God because...they don't believe God exists.
Besides, the wicked and unbelieving wouldn't know what to do with the gift once they got it -- they'd have no experience at trusting God or knowing how He operates. These things takes years of hard work. The carnally minded, the wicked and unbelieving don't like the sound of that because they are lazy and pretentious and want everything to come easy, like a bunch of misbehaved, uneducated spoiled brats. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
Did you read that post I put up where Ray said that we would all become God (perfect) once we could prove that we could handle the power?
--- End quote ---
Hello Gina,
Perhaps I have not conveyed myself properly, my question has nothing to do with the elect but everything to do with the fact that the elect are not perfect or perfected here and now and not being perfect in this life how does Christ make them perfect at His appearing ?
why does not Christ do for those non elect as He does for the elect ? After all the scriptures do say that Christ or God I should say is no respecter of persons.
Act 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Rom 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
I must say although I bet Esau feels somewhat perplex by Act 10:34
Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,
But then if I weigh Act 10:34 against Eph 1:4 and Pe 1:20 I become confused ,no doubt someone will quote me 1 Co 14:33
1Co 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.
Please don’t do the Christian thing here and you know what Ray said about all of Christendom about how they are always trying to get God off the hook, God needs no ones help.
I’ll await your answer to my questions Gina.
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