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Gods elect.

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Gina:
Hello Gina,

Hey, Rick

Perhaps I have not conveyed myself properly, my question has nothing to do with the elect but everything to do with the fact that the elect are not perfect or perfected here and now and not being perfect in this life how does Christ make them perfect at His appearing ?                       

I'm sorry, I thought your question was about the elect and how they are perfected by Christ?  Forgive me?

Wow, this is a huge subject.  How are the elect perfected at the appearing of Christ? 

Christ appeared many times to many different people and none of them were made perfect at that instant of His appearing before them because perfection takes time and is a process. 

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God.

etc.,  etc.

Christ said that if you endure to the end you shall be saved (perfected?).

When is the end?  The end is when you die and your spirit returns to God. 

What is perfection?  We are told to become perfect even as our heavenly Father is perfect.  Now, patience is one of God's attributes and means long-suffering.  Not short-suffering, long-suffering.

The bible says:  The one who has suffered in his flesh is finished with sin. 

Why do you assume the elect aren't perfected in this life?   After all, the elect are raised imperishable at the resurrection to life eonian - and reign with Christ.

The elect sin not willingly and when they do they, being prompted by the Holy Spirit, boldly draw near to the throne of grace for well-time help coming just when they need it (Hebrews).  It is God's kindness that leads to repentance. 

 

why does not Christ do for those non elect as He does for the elect ? After all the scriptures do say that Christ or God I should say is no respecter of persons.

I understand.  I asked this question too a long time ago on the forum because I was still steeped in sin.   I didn't believe the scriptures, Rick, because I didn't like the way God operated.  I think I was jealous and assumed that the elect had done something to earn being chosen as an elect.  I'm really ashamed of even thinking that now. 

God hardens whomever He wills and he has mercy on whomever He wills, and that's all there is to it.  We've discussed this before -- Paul was the chief of sinners, and none of the apostles did anything to be chosen of God.  "I chose you, you did not choose me." 

The elect are chosen by God when they are weak and sinners, so no one can boast.

Act 10:34  And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:11  for there is no respect of persons with God.

I must say although I bet Esau feels somewhat perplex by Act 10:34

Rom 9:13  Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Eph 1:4  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

Pe 1:20  who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,


But then if I weigh Act 10:34 against Eph 1:4 and Pe 1:20 I become confused ,no doubt someone will quote me 1 Co 14:33

1Co 14:33  for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.

Please don’t do the Christian thing here and you know what Ray said about all of Christendom about how they are always trying to get God off the hook, God needs no ones help.

He is not a respecter of persons.  The elect are His workmanship.  The Potter has every right to make out of the clay anything He chooses.  When some asked Paul that question, he said - Who are you to answer back to God? 

Remember, Ray said Jesus' speech EXPLODED with the proud.  They were carnal.  He couldn't do anything right in their eyes - not matter what He did they always found fault with Him because they were carnally-minded.  But with the humble, He was much gentler. 



I’ll await your answer to my questions Gina.

How was that?

Gina:
Post Script

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy,

God is enduring with a LOT of patience the vessels of wrath, even though He desires to show his wrath and to make His power known.  Why?  Because that's how He makes known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy. 

That's why He doesn't just go Abra-Cadabra - Bllliinnngg!  and make everyone perfect.  Think about it, if everyone was made perfect, how could a man's enemies be that of his own household? 

It's that necessary backdrop of evil.  We need contrast.  We need need the dark backdrop of evil as a contrast so that the vessels of mercy can see the riches of His glory.  What are the riches of His glory?  His mercy.  His much patience.  When the sinful woman saw it, she repented and fell down at His feet and kissed them over and over again.   When the Roman Soldier who needed his servant healed recognized Who Jesus was, he said, I'm not worthy to have you under my roof but if you just say the word, he will be healed. 

If you're honest, you recognize that you deserve wrath but instead of wrath you obtain mercy (God's kindness).  Then, you begin to hate your own sin, instead of hating God.  And vessel of mercy can only really see just how much patience God has had with them when they see God bestowing his patience on the vessels of wrath.  But He needs vessels of wrath in order to do that.  If He made everyone vessels of mercy, how could His mercy and riches and glory be made manifest?  There would be nothing to contrast it to.  That was Adam and Eve's problem.  They had nothing to contrast all the good things God had given them.  So along comes Satan.....  and the rest is history.

rick:

--- Quote from: Gina on July 16, 2015, 11:07:11 PM ---
Wow, this is a huge subject.  How are the elect perfected at the appearing of Christ? 

Christ appeared many times to many different people and none of them were made perfect at that instant of His appearing before them because perfection takes time and is a process. 


--- End quote ---


Hello Gina,

Has 1Co 15:52 been fulfilled and I don’t know about it ? Or are you insinuating that when 1Co15:52 been fulfilled that those who have been change are not perfected at that time ?

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I understand that Christ appeared to many people after His crucifixion Gina but not in the context of 1Co15:52.

So let me rephrase my original question, how does Christ instantly perfect that which is not perfected at His appearing as stated in 1Co15:52. The reason again why I ask this question is because Ray said that virtue can only be learned by overcoming some form of evil.

However according to 1Co15:52 there is no overcoming any form of evil, one will be instantly changed.

Kat:

--- Quote from: Rick on July 16, 2015, 09:08:47 PM ---
Perhaps I have not conveyed myself properly, my question has nothing to do with the elect but everything to do with the fact that the elect are not perfect or perfected here and now and not being perfect in this life how does Christ make them perfect at His appearing ?                       

why does not Christ do for those non elect as He does for the elect ? After all the scriptures do say that Christ or God I should say is no respecter of persons.
--- End quote ---

Hi Rick, I guess it all depends on how you understand the plan of God. Do you think that God is not accomplishing anything in those He has chosen now? Those that are chosen are still subject to their carnal flesh in this life... that is the struggle Paul speaks of in Romans 7. But for the few that God has chosen and given the Holy Spirit indwelling, they are becoming overcomers.

1John 5:4  For whatever is born (begotten CLV, YLT) of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And where does this "faith" come from? It's certainly not 'our' faith by which we overcome the lusts of the flesh.

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
v. 9  not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

So God gives us faith and it's the faith of Jesus, not our own faith, so with that we can overcome. It's all Jesus Christ - the Comforter - Holy Spirit doing it in us, that's what makes the difference for those going through the narrow gate now.

1Cor 1:30  But God has brought you into union with Christ Jesus, and God has made Christ to be our wisdom. By Him we are put right with God; we become God's holy people and are set free.
v. 31  So then, as the scripture says, "Whoever wants to boast must boast of what the Lord has done."

So WE cannot make our self "perfect" and sinless while in the flesh, but by the Spirit of Christ indwelling we are made pure in the eyes of God. 

Heb 10:14  With one sacrifice, then, He has made perfect forever those who are purified from sin.

1Cor 6:11  And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified(G37), but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

G37 sanctified (hagiazō) - to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Now as you were concerned why God has chosen a few now ahead of the many, because "there is no partiality with God" (Rom 2:11)... so how can that be? Because the chosen were not picked because they are special or deserved to be chosen first, they are not 'respected' more... actually it's quite the opposite.

1Cor 1:27  But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
v. 28  and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
v. 29  that no flesh should glory in His presence.

So God is bringing a few of the less probable ones to Christ right now in this age, to show how great He is in working salvation in us "that no flesh should glory," not because those few are better than the rest. No, and the rest are not forgotten, they certainly are not less important to God, they will be brought into the kingdom in time, by these few "foolish... base things," as Heb 11:40 says. The chosen few are overcomers because of Christ indwelling... it's a constant struggle and we stumble and fall often, it's a learning process. This is the preparation for what is to come when Christ returns, and this process must come first.

2Cor 5:5  Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

2Tim 2:21  Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
v. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption (G861), and this mortal must put on immortality.

G861 incorruption (aphtharsia) - incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.

1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

At resurrection Christ calls His elect up to met Him and these weak physical fleshly bodies will be replaced with powerful glorious spiritual bodies, so they can rule with Christ and they will be one with God and they will then be perfect "like Him."

1Cor 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
v. 50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Matt 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Rev 21:2  Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

indianabob:
Hi Rick,

Not sure my comments will help, but I noticed that one part of your question dealt with God NOT being a respecter of persons. I think that is a fair question and many have had the same thoughts.
The answer in my understanding is that God is simply calling a few ahead of the others.

 All are going to be called, but not all are to be at the head of the line.

In God's loving plan, the few, the elect will be called ahead of the rest so that a group of instructors, trainers, experienced guides and elder brothers/sisters will be available to smooth the path for those to follow.
The followers who come alive after the return of Christ and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth will be made alive again in an environment filled with love and understanding. An environment wherein there will be one pure language, one teaching of truth, no war, no confusion, no Satan to buffet them etc etc.

Their life of correction, of being taught righteousness, will be a much easier path than the one the elect will have lived through. There will be difficult codes of conduct, there will be sacrifice of personal desires and of resistance to the pulls of the flesh, the pride of life, the lust of the eyes etc. However all will need to go through the same training as their neighbor, no one will be treated differently.
They will have the perfect example of the elect to lead them into overcoming and appreciation of the gift of loving concern for others equal to ones love for self.

Indiana Bob

See Matthew 20:1-16

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

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