> General Discussions
Gods elect.
Gina:
--- Quote from: Rick on July 17, 2015, 04:59:47 AM ---
--- Quote from: Gina on July 16, 2015, 11:07:11 PM ---
Wow, this is a huge subject. How are the elect perfected at the appearing of Christ?
Christ appeared many times to many different people and none of them were made perfect at that instant of His appearing before them because perfection takes time and is a process.
--- End quote ---
Hello Gina,
Has 1Co 15:52 been fulfilled and I don’t know about it ? Or are you insinuating that when 1Co15:52 been fulfilled that those who have been change are not perfected at that time ?
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I understand that Christ appeared to many people after His crucifixion Gina but not in the context of 1Co15:52.
So let me rephrase my original question, how does Christ instantly perfect that which is not perfected at His appearing as stated in 1Co15:52. The reason again why I ask this question is because Ray said that virtue can only be learned by overcoming some form of evil.
However according to 1Co15:52 there is no overcoming any form of evil, one will be instantly changed.
--- End quote ---
Hi, Rick
There isn't any overcoming any form of evil while anyone is dead because there is no work or contrivance in death.
There isn't any weakness in death either. In death you're just .... dead. There's no life at all in the body of the dead man, let alone any weakness.
The body itself isn't sinful. It's weak and corruptible and must be put off.
It is sown in weakness (so it can fall to the ground and die?); it is raised in power.
It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in Honor and Glory.
It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body.
The elect don't put on perfection at the resurrection. They receive Immortality.
Immortality is immortality. Perfection is perfection. And no one is given immortality until they are made perfect through suffering.
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith (not the body). For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame ["dishonor"], and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb. 12:2)
Christ doesn't perfect people in an instant.
Patience by its very nature is something that takes a lot of time to develop and has to occur while someone is fully conscious.
So the body is sown in dishonor but that doesn't mean that the body is itself dishonorable, but it is perishable and so it is dishonored (treated shamefully) so that the person can learn what it means to suffer patiently.
4Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."
Immortal beings can't suffer because their glorious bodies aren't made that way. I love it.
I like Kat and Bob's replies.
rick:
Hi Kat,
Thank you for your response, also I would like to say thank you for helping me understand that God is no respecter of persons seeing where they the elect have done nothing deserving of being chosen by God.
What I was getting hung up on was the fact that while we are in this life there will always be temptations one will succumb to even at the time of ones death, however once dead one can no longer act upon those temptations but none the less had that one lived there would of been more that one could of worked on or rather God could of worked on had they lived, meaning they did not die in a perfect state.
So with this thought in mind they will be resurrected in a changed state which I would interpret as a spiritual body and mind that are completely righteous ,completely converted.
So my thoughts are as followed, that there would of been could of been a virtue/s they had not at the time of their death but in the resurrection they now are completely virtuous without overcoming some form of evil.
That was the point I was trying to make but obviously failed at it most miserably.
Thanks again Kat. ::)
repottinger:
Dear Rick,
I just thought I might re-emphasize that, as Kat said, God IS accomplishing SOME things in those that He has chosen now—through His Holy Spirit, they are becoming overcomers (just not to the point of leading sinless lives, of course), while the non-elect are not given the opportunity to do so in this life:
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne (Revelation 3:21, AKJV).
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son (Revelation 21:7, AKJV).
Thus, it seems that the elect are able to be changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" as a reward for the fruit they have produced while overcoming in this life. (If anyone here sees any type of error or problem in this line of thinking, I would appreciate it if you could let me know.)
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
Gina:
[deleted] :) (It wasn't a very nice post. Sorry everyone.)
rick:
--- Quote from: Gina on July 18, 2015, 12:56:52 AM ---
--- Quote ---What I was getting hung up on was the fact that while we are in this life there will always be temptations one will succumb to even at the time of ones death, however once dead one can no longer act upon those temptations but none the less had that one lived there would of been more that one could of worked on or rather God could of worked on had they lived, meaning they did not die in a perfect state.
So with this thought in mind they will be resurrected in a changed state which I would interpret as a spiritual body and mind that are completely righteous ,completely converted.
So my thoughts are as followed, [bt]hat there would of been could of been a virtue/s they had not at the time of their death but in the resurrection they now are completely virtuous without overcoming some form of evil.[/b]
--- End quote ---
Hi, Rick
The elect overcome the world.
It's not a "fact" that the elect succumb to (fail to resist) temptations even at the time of death. All you have to do is consider the fact of how many people are unconsciousness, or comatose or drugged out long before and up to an including the time of their death? As long as they are in a state, how can they be tempted by anything? They aren't even aware!
And even if the elect are semi-conscious or totally conscious at the time of death (like Jesus was, as he hung on the cross), Paul said:
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
--- Quote ---"There would of been could of been a virtue/s they had not (had not what? overcome?) at the time of their death"
--- End quote ---
It amazes me that you don't know the difference between immortality and perfection, or even how to ask a simple question to get a simple answer, but you make statements of fact about the time of death for people, as if you had all knowledge and could see into the future.
It's not that way for God's elect who overcome the world. God sees to it that they endure to the end. God is love and love never fails.
It's not a "fact" that God doesn't finish His work in the lives of those He chooses. Paul said,
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Morbid, morbid. So morbid is your thinking. What do you watch on TV or youtube.?
--- End quote ---
Hi Gina,
As I listen to you 1Co13:1 comes to mind.
1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
Have a nice day Gina and may God bless you.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version