I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...

[Ian 155]

I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?

mercy, peace and love
Kathy

Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this  ...

these are my thoughts below

I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have

Hello Ian,

Without a 2nd witness of scripture one can make the word of God say anything and you admitted you cannot find a 2nd witness, so you are confronted with 2 Pe 1:20

2Pe 1:20  knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

A clue ...are the greeks highly superstitious ? reincarnation,statues,gods etc

Are you aware that bar the ERV  Paul is saying to Timothy ,that these two Greek chaps, are actually saying that the resurrection has already occurred?

Also, if everything is spiritual now how do you explain  1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.

Natural dies when Spirit is poured out

do you know what Born Again/Anew means ? Do you know what a new regenerated Mind Means

Physically can you see a new reborn mind ? can you physically,see the mind of Christ ? -

One can see the minds Fruit ,you cant see an actual mind running around .

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption                                                                        ( physical )                             ( spiritual )

You also mentioned Mat 23:27  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Notice Christ said ( like ) not ( are )

Sure he likened them to tombs and DEAD MENS BONES I mean he wasn't addressing tombstones and a bunch of bones was he now

These Pharisees and scribes though they could obtain life by obeying the law but the law only brings death.

True

Rom 7:9  And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;

YES,your point ?

Another thing also, if the resurrection has already happen physically then we could do what Christ does I would imagine

( 1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

Joh 20:26 sounds like to me Christ just appeared in a room with the door shut, Christ came through where ? The door ? The door was locked , the walls ? I don't know He just appeared in the room with them.

Joh 20:26  And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Can God's elect just appear in a room in like manner as Christ did ?

sure, is Ray around when you read his papers ?

Check out Acts 19 for more clarity on 2tim 2v18,then let me know what you think is going on in 2 tim 2v18 and Ill respond... most of the other stuff I have answered today.

[lilitalienboi16]

Ian, I've read your posts and I strongly disagree with your conclusions.

You mock the idea of a literal ressurection yet this is exactly what Ezekiel saw. A very literal, physical, non spiritual, ressurection.

Ezekiel 37:1-10
1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army

Furthermore you did not respond to my post where I shared very strong witnesses for a future day, last day, return of Christ and ressurection of the dead. Including what happens to the elect on that day which is similar in nature to what occurs to the world but with a twist--They put on the heavenly image. They recieve spiritual-immortal bodies.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Just READ what is right infront of you and don't try to rewrite it with blue letters. The future ressurection is very real and for the vast majority of God's creation it will occur as described by Ezekiel the prophet of God.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Notice paul says, 'we shall [future] ALSO be in the likeness of His ressurection.' So paul is very careful to not say that we have yet been raised from the dead but that we should 'walk in the newness of life.' He says the ressurection will be FUTURE. I believe paul did this because its all about the mindset we have:

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 3:18-21
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Our conversation, our minds, is in the Heavens because we CONSIDER ourselves dead to the physical body by the working of God's spirit in us. This then allows us to be have the mind of Christ, to be thinking upon the spiritual things and as you stated earlier, experience that 'renewing of the mind.'

Romans 12: 1-2
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ephesians 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

We 'die daily' not because we are ressurected daily but because salvation is a process and we must constantly put off this flesh so that we can mind the things of the spirit (renewing of the mind). So that we can prove what is that 'perfect will of God.' We see in part, we know in part.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You chided Kat for asking if she thinks we will see God one day who is spirit. There is much I want to say on this topic but I am not permitted as it borders on teaching. I will only state what anyone can search up in scripture and that is:

Exodus 33:18-23
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

God be with you,
Alex

[Kat]

Well Ian, you are hanging on to your beliefs that go totally contrary to what Ray taught. You brought up being banned before... why do you think you were? For this very teaching!

You are showing that either you don't understand or either just flat out don't agree with what Ray taught and those of us here also believe. Now what you want to believe is your prerogative, but you cannot bring it here... and even before you put all this up that shows how you specifically believe you were making many comments that indirectly referred to this way of thinking, that just leads to confusion for those who are trying to study what Ray taught, especially those that may be new to these teachings.

Here are a few places that show exactly what Ray had taught on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4132.0.html -------

COMMENT;  NO, neither. We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND."  Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. See my paper "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!" where I discuss the "sinner's prayer" near the end and how that no Scriptures says that we are "saved" already in the past tense. This also happens when we are given a new spiritual body in our resurrection from the dead.

    Here is the key word to all of these misunderstandings you are having. You are talking the words of Rom. 6 literally, whereas we know that they were inspired of Christ's Holy Spirit, and these words are "spirit" (John 6:63).  Notice verse 11, after Paul explains all that happens when we are spiritually baptized with Jesus, He then shows how these things apply to us:  "Likewise [in like manner as Paul just explained the meaning of all these things in the previous verses]...LIKEWISE

    R-E-C-K-O-N  you also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED TO SIN, but ALIVE unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord"  (Rom. 6:11). "Reckon" means to estimate, suppose, count" etc. something to BE what it is not YET fully comprehended or fully come to pass.

    (emailer's comment)"...I can no longer sin........do I have to repent.........can I sin after being reborn?"

    COMMENT:  We will sin as long as we are living in our flesh and bones and blood bodies. Yes, we must repent: "FORGIVE us our debts...." (Matt. 6:12).  We are to come to the place were sin "sin shall not have DOMINION over you"  (Rom. 6:14), but "if we say we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT IN US...if we say that we have NOT SINNED, we make HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US"  (I John 1:8-10).

    God be with you,

    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html --------------

The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).

And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1859.0.html -------------

"So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:  it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body"  (I Cor. 15:42-45)

When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above."  In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born."  Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of  God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom:  "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory"  (Eph. 1:13-14).

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html ------

Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie


Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again".  All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection.  We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.

God be with you,
Ray

[rick]

I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?

mercy, peace and love
Kathy

Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this  ...

these are my thoughts below

I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have

Hello Ian,

Without a 2nd witness of scripture one can make the word of God say anything and you admitted you cannot find a 2nd witness, so you are confronted with 2 Pe 1:20

2Pe 1:20  knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

A clue ...are the greeks highly superstitious ? reincarnation,statues,gods etc

Are you aware that bar the ERV  Paul is saying to Timothy ,that these two Greek chaps, are actually saying that the resurrection has already occurred?

Also, if everything is spiritual now how do you explain  1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.

Natural dies when Spirit is poured out

do you know what Born Again/Anew means ? Do you know what a new regenerated Mind Means

Physically can you see a new reborn mind ? can you physically,see the mind of Christ ? -

One can see the minds Fruit ,you cant see an actual mind running around .

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption                                                                        ( physical )                             ( spiritual )

You also mentioned Mat 23:27  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Notice Christ said ( like ) not ( are )

Sure he likened them to tombs and DEAD MENS BONES I mean he wasn't addressing tombstones and a bunch of bones was he now

These Pharisees and scribes though they could obtain life by obeying the law but the law only brings death.

True

Rom 7:9  And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;

YES,your point ?

Another thing also, if the resurrection has already happen physically then we could do what Christ does I would imagine

( 1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

Joh 20:26 sounds like to me Christ just appeared in a room with the door shut, Christ came through where ? The door ? The door was locked , the walls ? I don't know He just appeared in the room with them.

Joh 20:26  And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Can God's elect just appear in a room in like manner as Christ did ?

sure, is Ray around when you read his papers ?

Check out Acts 19 for more clarity on 2tim 2v18,then let me know what you think is going on in 2 tim 2v18 and Ill respond... most of the other stuff I have answered today.

This from Ray.

TRUTH NUMBER 1

[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]..." (I Cor. 15:44).

[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY..." (Phil. 3:21).

[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).

The sequence of God's plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.

[John from Kentucky]

Here is something further from Ray regarding physical or spiritual bodies in the Resurrection.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html


PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
« on: June 14, 2008, 03:40:06 PM »

PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?

This is a rather involved study that I have only a short time to touch upon at this time. I realize that this will probably (as always) raise even more questions in other areas. Please don't try to speculate yourself in unscriptural solutions to these potential mysteries. I must stay focused on those studies which I deem most import for our site at this time, and don't have the time to be side-tracked too often.

There are few places in the Old Testament where a resurrection of dead people are mentioned or alluded to. Jesus stated that the declaration, "Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read that which is declared to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living" (Matt. 22:31).

This statement proves that if God is the "God of the living," but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead when Jesus mentions them, then there has got to be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The major prophecy concerning the resurrection is found in Ezek. 37. Here we are shown a valley of "dry bones" which God says represents "the WHOLE House of Israel" -- "And He said unto me, `Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; lo, they are saying: Dried up have our bones, And perished has our hope, We have been cut off by ourselves" (Ezek. 37:11).

So the whole House of Israel dies in a condition of being "perished" with no "hope," and are "cut off." But what does God tell Ezekiel He will do for them?

I am prophesying, and lo, a rushing, and draw near do the bones, bone unto its bone."

Eze 37:8  "And I beheld, and lo, on them [are] sinews [tendons, strength, muscular power], and flesh [muscles, fat, etc.] has come up, and cover them does skin [the outer covering of a physical body] over above--and spirit there is none in them."

I know of no "spiritual" tendons, muscles, fat or skin, that are put on physical "bones" to remake a "spiritual" man. This is a PHYSICAL resurrection of the dead, Eze 37:10 "And I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet--a very very great force" (Ezek. 37:10).

Notice that it takes the spirit from God to give these dried bones life once more. They then "stand on their feet." This is the exact and precise definition of the word "resurrection." It means to "stand up" upon one's feet, but the word itself has nothing to do with being "spiritual" or "immortal" whatsoever.  Jesus raised a little girl and Lazarus from the dead, and they stood up on their feet and lived—they were not made spiritual bodies or given immortality. Likewise those saints resurrected at Christ's resurrection, were not given spiritual bodies or immortality.

Nowhere are the wicked promised immortality or incorruption, nowhere. The most thorough study on the resurrection of the saints is found in I Corinthians. Let's notice a few things that most overlook:

Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world? The salvation of the wicked? The resurrection of the wicked? NO. Let's read it:

"Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, 'brethren'] I declare unto YOU the gospel..." (I Cor. 15:1).

"...by which also YOU are saved..." (Verse 2).

"For I delivered unto YOU...." (Verse 3).  Etc.

What is the "order" of the resurrection of which Paul speaks? "But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S at His coming" (Verse 23).

The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of "they that are CHRIST'S," not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment. Pay attention TO THE WORDS!

1Co 15:50  "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God "inheriting the Kingdom of God. Is the act of raising the wicked from the dead and act of their "inheriting the Kingdom of God?" I think not. Will the wicked then "inherit incorruption" at their resurrection? Well many say "YES, yes they will." NO, no they WON'T! Are men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, who are among the most "corruptible" men who have ever lived, going to be given bodies that are "incorruptible?" Do the Scriptures lie when they tell us that "corruption" (as in the above named persons) does NOT "inherit incorruption?"

We are told that a seed must die to give life to a new seed, or grain, or body (Verse 36).

What KIND of new seed comes about from planting a seed that first must die? 1Co 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain"

Are we told what the "other" grain might be that sprouts like "wheat?" Yes, as a matter of fact, we are:

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

And are these "tares" also gathered into the barns (brought into the Kingdom of God)? NO, Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest [resurrection] I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles [different 'groups' at different 'burnings'?]  to burn them [in the Lake of Fire]: but gather the wheat into my barn [My KINGDOM].

NO, in the day of harvest, not all will come up "immortal and incorruptible."

What else do we learn about the resurrection of God's Elect? What are some of the features of their newly resurrected bodies?

"...but the glory of the celestial [high, above, heavenly] is one, and the glory of the terrestrial [worldly, EARTHLY] is another" (Verse 40).

Which category do the Elect come in? Now pay attention:

1Co 15:48-49  As is the earthy, such ARE they also that ARE earthy: and as is the heavenly, such ARE they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, WE SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly.

Notice that ONLY "we" [God's Elect], not "they,"  "...shall bear the image of the heavenly."  Paul is speaking that "THEY, the earthy," and "WE, the heavenly," and only the "we" will "bear the image of the heavenly," not "they," the wicked who will be raised as tares to be burned in the Lake of Fire.

Now we can understand verse 50 in proper context:

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [corrupt men like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, and Saddam Hussein] inherit incorruption.

The ONLY ones who inherit incorruption are those "WE [who] have borne the image of the earthly [and] shall bear the image of the heavenly." And this happens at a specific time:

1Co 15:51-54  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It is the "we" and the "us" that will be changed at the last trump, not the "they" and the "them."

Should Mao, Adolph, and Saddam be resurrected to incorruptible and immortal bodies, then death would also be "swallowed up in victory" in THEIR LIVES ALSO. How could they go through the "second DEATH" if "death" would have already been "swallowed up in VICTORY" in their miserable, wicked, vile, and deranged carnal minds? Such people know nothing of "the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus." They know only of "law of SIN AND DEATH" (Rom. 8:2).

Notice these verses describing the resurrection of God's elect:

1Co 15:42-45  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

INCORRUPTION: Strong's #861, aphtharsia, "from #862 [un-decaying]; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: immortality, incorruption, sincerity."

Note: INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY

GLORY: Strong's #1391, doxa, G1391 From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honor, praise, worship.

Note: GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP

POWER: Strong's #1411, dunamis, From G1410; "force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work."

Note: FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKIER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  ('violence' only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK

SPIRITUAL: Strong's #4152, pneumatikos From G4151; "non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual.

Note: NON-CARNAL ETHEREAL (as opposed to gross or daemoniacally) SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL

Now let's foolishly assume that the wicked are going to be resurrected with "spiritual" bodies. The only place in Scripture that anyone is said to be resurrected with a "spiritual body," is in these many references in I Cor. 15. So if a resurrected "spiritual body" applies to the unjust and the wicked and the unbelievers, then these attributes which constitute a "spiritual body" resurrection MUST APPLY TO THEM ALSO. Now then, show me one Scripture anywhere that justifies people like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein being resurrected with:

INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  ('violence' only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL

Is there anywhere a Scripture that presents the resurrection of the wicked in such a glorious, and holy, divine light?  I think not. Rather we are presented with this as the characterization of the resurrected wicked to eonian judgment:

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [eonian] life, and some to shame [rebuke, reproach, disgrace] and everlasting [eonian] contempt [repulsion, aversion, abhorrence].

Is it possible to have a greater contradiction of character traits than this? No, those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies, will not be outdone by the wicked who are raised from their graves. There will not be two communities of non-believers being judged—one in physical bodies, and those among the worst of humanity that have ever lived, being in beautiful, glorious, powerful, incorruptible, SPIRITUAL bodies. It's unscriptural nonsense as far as I can see. Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

[Ian 155]

Ian, I've read your posts and I strongly disagree with your conclusions.

You mock the idea of a literal ressurection yet this is exactly what Ezekiel saw. A very literal, physical, non spiritual, ressurection.

Ezekiel 37:1-10
1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army


THIS IS LITERAL ? WOW

Furthermore you did not respond to my post where I shared very strong witnesses for a future day, last day, return of Christ and ressurection of the dead. Including what happens to the elect on that day which is similar in nature to what occurs to the world but with a twist--They put on the heavenly image. They recieve spiritual-immortal bodies.

OK forgive me for not answering that one here goes we are given GOD Like BODIES if there is such a thing seeing God is SPIRIT "And The HUMAN SHALL BECOME AS WE ARE" NOT FLESH AND BONE BUT UNSEEN "BODIES" if you want to apply BODY I can see a BODY I CANT SEE SPIRIT - perhaps we wont BE LIKE HIM we drag this tent with us - but "St PETER" WONT LET YOU IN ,IF YOU ARE REMOTELY FLESHLY

IS THERE AN IMMORTAL BODY (as in my body)?

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Just READ what is right infront of you and don't try to rewrite it with blue letters. The future ressurection is very real and for the vast majority of God's creation it will occur as described by Ezekiel the prophet of God.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


What has this to do with what Kat asked ME? that is do you think we are raised with Natural literal bodies

Notice paul says, 'we shall [future] ALSO be in the likeness of His ressurection.' So paul is very careful to not say that we have yet been raised from the dead but that we should 'walk in the newness of life.' He says the ressurection will be FUTURE. I believe paul did this because its all about the mindset we have:

Your future and my future may not be the same time right? - just asking, cause you inserted the word not GOD ever read the scripture "NOW IS THE TIME" ?

2Co 6:2 For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!"


Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 3:18-21
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

So do you agree? our talk is(should be, spirit not Literal


21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Our conversation, our minds, is in the Heavens because we CONSIDER ourselves dead to the physical body by the working of God's spirit in us. This then allows us to be have the mind of Christ, to be thinking upon the spiritual things and as you stated earlier, experience that 'renewing of the mind.'

so true the "consider" part is faith so are there some folk walking according, NOW

Romans 12: 1-2
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No problems with the above,how do you interpret it- so you can assist my wayward thinking - are there different bodies ? terrestrial and celestial ?

Ephesians 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Yes, when you cast off ADAM or ADAM IS CAST OFF YOU and PUT ON CHRIST this is NEW, this happens in the heavens, above the flesh, above the natural understanding

We 'die daily' not because we are resurrected daily but because salvation is a process and we must constantly put off this flesh so that we can mind the things of the spirit (renewing of the mind). So that we can prove what is that 'perfect will of God.' We see in part, we know in part.

Now you getting desparate, re read what you wrote ...What has this to do with being raised spiritually.You cant prove anything without God guiding you

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You chided Kat for asking if she thinks we will see God one day who is spirit. There is much I want to say on this topic but I am not permitted as it borders on teaching. I will only state what anyone can search up in scripture and that is:

No I did Not Chide Kat for what you quoted, Kat said "I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future"?and Kat knows what I think, to which I replied, "I believe all ,everything, is spiritual" (UNSEEN) and for your twisted version Only Spirit will see God, only Spirit will comprehend GOD, AS...,......... "HE IS THE FATHER OF SPIRITS" AMEN

Exodus 33:18-23
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Sure,can you see Gods FACE ? hence we DIE as "No one has see HIS face and LIVED" and what do we DIE to?, When GOD shows up ? perhaps...all earthy understanding ?

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

how do we get a PURE heart ? so we can see him ?

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads

Natural cannot see Gods Face, hence Moses's limitation, then

do you see His Name Literally tattooed on Your Forehead ?

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

God be with you,
Alex

You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... but so be It, If you think I am Mocking as apposed to getting one THINKING Spiritually, well then mocking it is, BUT YOU CANNOT DISREGARD the Scriptures I have presented ... you know it and so does Kat and those who have eyes to see.

Perhaps this is another (when one finds out the is in fact no Father Xmas) type of experience.

The Spirit Gives life to "ezekiel's" bone "Vision" you interpret spiritual tendons as real tendons you interpret skin as real skin -

I'm afraid Ye Too, are Yet CARNAL... this however is a state... that is necessary .

You can change the truth for a lie (blaspheme all you like) I would like to add that the scripture does not contradict, Only Spirit begets Spirit -

COULD IT BE, THE ENEMY HAS DECEIVED YOU,SO AS TO NOT HAVE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH HIS POWER ?

Mat 22:29 Now, answering, Jesus said to them, "You are deceived, not being acquainted with the scriptures, nor yet with the power of God."

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection neither are they marrying nor taking in marriage, but are as messengers of God in heaven." baring Hollywood, how many messengers have you seen

Paul has the following to say re the above
2nd witness

1Co 7:29 Now this I am averring, brethren, the era is limited; that, furthermore, those also having wives may be as not having them,

Further,You are saying "dust returns to bones" and these bones get to wear tendons and flesh again and there is no spirit returning to The Father... how can you believe contrary ?surely this deception... wrecks your faith /??

If Ray can state IT WAS A SPIRITUAL VISION,on the one hand re transfiguration, which by the way should give you more insight, I don't believe this present "selective" understanding is appropriate, since, God CHANGES NOT.

Do me a favour dig up a grave say 100 years old - ya wont find bones friend, you that are medically inclined should know, dust does in fact return to dust

God Is Spirit we will be as he is,however it takes the Natural example to show us,Do you cut your hands off when "they" sin?do you pluck your natural "eye" out when "it" sins ?

How would Peter recognise Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration ? correct, according to the SPIRIT

I am not teaching you, I am exposing those who contradict... not one of your scriptures show me we are raised Human  - what is NEW ABOUT THAT? perhaps you think the NEW JERUSALEM IS A HUGE REAL PLANET COMING DOWN SUSPENDED WITH CHAINS.

Think about the following...

How do you think God (who we will be like) can be everywhere at once ?Likewise ,re the wicked, how can Satan be "everywhere"  restricted obviously to The Fathers authority. UNSEEN

do me another FAVOR friend... pray and pray fervently.

Perhaps I can call you Brother,one day.


ps why not give me your explanation of the scripture i present that would be a 1st

[Ian 155]

I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?

mercy, peace and love
Kathy

Hi Kat,you are aware I got banned for this  ...

these are my thoughts below

I believe everything is spiritual, to answer your question Id need a verse x2 to back myself..this I don't have

Hello Ian,

Without a 2nd witness of scripture one can make the word of God say anything and you admitted you cannot find a 2nd witness, so you are confronted with 2 Pe 1:20

2Pe 1:20  knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.

A clue ...are the greeks highly superstitious ? reincarnation,statues,gods etc

Are you aware that bar the ERV  Paul is saying to Timothy ,that these two Greek chaps, are actually saying that the resurrection has already occurred?

Also, if everything is spiritual now how do you explain  1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.

Natural dies when Spirit is poured out

do you know what Born Again/Anew means ? Do you know what a new regenerated Mind Means

Physically can you see a new reborn mind ? can you physically,see the mind of Christ ? -

One can see the minds Fruit ,you cant see an actual mind running around .

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption                                                                        ( physical )                             ( spiritual )

You also mentioned Mat 23:27  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Notice Christ said ( like ) not ( are )

Sure he likened them to tombs and DEAD MENS BONES I mean he wasn't addressing tombstones and a bunch of bones was he now

These Pharisees and scribes though they could obtain life by obeying the law but the law only brings death.

True

Rom 7:9  And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;

YES,your point ?

Another thing also, if the resurrection has already happen physically then we could do what Christ does I would imagine

( 1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

Joh 20:26 sounds like to me Christ just appeared in a room with the door shut, Christ came through where ? The door ? The door was locked , the walls ? I don't know He just appeared in the room with them.

Joh 20:26  And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Can God's elect just appear in a room in like manner as Christ did ?

sure, is Ray around when you read his papers ?

Check out Acts 19 for more clarity on 2tim 2v18,then let me know what you think is going on in 2 tim 2v18 and Ill respond... most of the other stuff I have answered today.

This from Ray.

TRUTH NUMBER 1

[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]..." (I Cor. 15:44).

[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY..." (Phil. 3:21).

[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).

The sequence of God's plan of salvation for mankind is most important—First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.

Glad we agree

[Ian 155]

Well Ian, you are hanging on to your beliefs that go totally contrary to what Ray taught. You brought up being banned before... why do you think you were? For this very teaching!

You are showing that either you don't understand or either just flat out don't agree with what Ray taught and those of us here also believe. Now what you want to believe is your prerogative, but you cannot bring it here... and even before you put all this up that shows how you specifically believe you were making many comments that indirectly referred to this way of thinking, that just leads to confusion for those who are trying to study what Ray taught, especially those that may be new to these teachings.

Here are a few places that show exactly what Ray had taught on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4132.0.html -------

COMMENT;  NO, neither. We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND."  Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. See my paper "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!" where I discuss the "sinner's prayer" near the end and how that no Scriptures says that we are "saved" already in the past tense. This also happens when we are given a new spiritual body in our resurrection from the dead.

    Here is the key word to all of these misunderstandings you are having. You are talking the words of Rom. 6 literally, whereas we know that they were inspired of Christ's Holy Spirit, and these words are "spirit" (John 6:63).  Notice verse 11, after Paul explains all that happens when we are spiritually baptized with Jesus, He then shows how these things apply to us:  "Likewise [in like manner as Paul just explained the meaning of all these things in the previous verses]...LIKEWISE

    R-E-C-K-O-N  you also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED TO SIN, but ALIVE unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord"  (Rom. 6:11). "Reckon" means to estimate, suppose, count" etc. something to BE what it is not YET fully comprehended or fully come to pass.

    (emailer's comment)"...I can no longer sin........do I have to repent.........can I sin after being reborn?"

    COMMENT:  We will sin as long as we are living in our flesh and bones and blood bodies. Yes, we must repent: "FORGIVE us our debts...." (Matt. 6:12).  We are to come to the place were sin "sin shall not have DOMINION over you"  (Rom. 6:14), but "if we say we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT IN US...if we say that we have NOT SINNED, we make HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US"  (I John 1:8-10).

    God be with you,

    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html --------------

The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).

And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1859.0.html -------------

"So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:  it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body"  (I Cor. 15:42-45)

When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above."  In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born."  Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of  God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom:  "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory"  (Eph. 1:13-14).

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html ------

Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie


Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again".  All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection.  We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.

God be with you,
Ray

KAt I will respond later I gota do stuff

[John from Kentucky]

Ian,

You wrote:
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... from your reply #45 above.

In my reply #44 above, I quoted a paper from Ray on Resurrection.

As Charlie Chan would say, "Contradiction Please."

John

[Ian 155]

Ian,

You wrote:
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... from your reply #45 above.

In my reply #44 above, I quoted a paper from Ray on Resurrection.

As Charlie Chan would say, "Contradiction Please."

John

Well Not So Titled ie "Resurrection Paper" as in "Lake of Fire paper" if you get what I mean.. there are some papers with his thoughts in them

[John from Kentucky]

Ian,

You wrote:
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... from your reply #45 above.

In my reply #44 above, I quoted a paper from Ray on Resurrection.

As Charlie Chan would say, "Contradiction Please."

John

Well Not So Titled ie "Resurrection Paper" as in "Lake of Fire paper" if you get what I mean.. there are some papers with his thoughts in them

  Well Ian, you are beginning to lose me.  The paper I quoted above, how are Ray's thoughts not in it?  Besides, Ray's thoughts are not the key thing.  The most important things are God's thoughts as clearly expressed by the Scriptures, not our opinions as to what we think the Scriptures say.

[Kat]

OK forgive me for not answering that one here goes we are given GOD Like BODIES if there is such a thing seeing God is SPIRIT "And The HUMAN SHALL BECOME AS WE ARE" NOT FLESH AND BONE BUT UNSEEN "BODIES" if you want to apply BODY I can see a BODY I CANT SEE SPIRIT - perhaps we wont BE LIKE HIM we drag this tent with us - but "St PETER" WONT LET YOU IN ,IF YOU ARE REMOTELY FLESHLY

Ian this is a response you had for Alex... AFTER Christ's resurrection He said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me" (Matt 28:18), He had obtained back the glory He had with the Father (John 17:5).... but yet He still could appear at will to His disciples (Mark 16:12, 14; Acts 7:26: 13:31; 1Cor 15:5,6,7). And Paul said Christ also appeared to Him 1Cor 15:8 when he was converted. So if He is now an invisible Spirit how was that possible? Yes the Father is invisible Spirit, but Christ was made to be a visible image of the invisible God, and this is not just speaking of His life in the flesh either.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus He spoke of 'entering' the kingdom, and being 'born' of the Spirit, that has not happened in the lives of elect, not until they are 'born' into the kingdom at Christ return and gathers them (Matt 24:31) at the first resurrection.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
v. 6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Do you think Jesus was saying that somebody born into the kingdom became invisible and no longer an individual? Actually Paul stated precisely what that means and he did not contradict what Jesus had said.

1Co 15:51  Lo! a sacred secret, unto you, do I declare:—we shall not, all, sleep, but we shall, all, be changed,—
v. 52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet; for it shall sound, and, the dead, shall be raised, incorruptible, and, we, shall be changed.
v. 53  For this corruptible must needs clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this mortal, clothe itself, with immortality. (Rotherham)

Changed does not mean made invisible as Paul had already stated there is a "spiritual body." I used Rotherham because it uses the word "incorruptibility" which means being impervious to corruption - sin, but this means being one with God, powerful and glorious, this is how the elect will be perfected. Just as Christ appeared many times after His resurrection to His disciples, as God He had power to do whatever He so desires... you cannot limit Him and say He cannot be seen. The Father is not seen, but that is why the Son was made, to be His voice and image, always.  as when "every eye shall SEE Him" (Rev 1:7). 

Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And the elect will also be seen when they are ruling with Christ, they will have glorious "spiritual BODY."

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body (G4983). 

G4983 sōma
Thayer Definition:
1) the body both of men or animals
    1a) a dead body or corpse
    1b) the living body
    1b1) of animals
2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
3) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
    3a) so in the NT of the church
4) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

So here is what is in the Scripture...
I continue to address this with you, because you have influence on this forum and your understanding on this is not what Ray taught and this a basic and fundamental principle. So you bring confusion here with your comments, because your basic way of understanding is flawed and effects the rest of what you say.

Amos 3:3  Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ian 155]

Well Ian, you are hanging on to your beliefs that go totally contrary to what Ray taught. You brought up being banned before... why do you think you were? For this very teaching!

Can You actually tell me what i am "hanging on to " quoting that is incorrect or is it a case of your interpretation along with a truckload of scriptures that don't even apply and those that do you see with a fleshly mind

You are showing that either you don't understand or either just flat out don't agree with what Ray taught and those of us here also believe. Now what you want to believe is your prerogative, but you cannot bring it here... and even before you put all this up that shows how you specifically believe you were making many comments that indirectly referred to this way of thinking, that just leads to confusion for those who are trying to study what Ray taught, especially those that may be new to these teachings.

If I don't agree with certain of Rays interpretations and have the scriptures to back me up, what does that make me ? So explain where I'm wrong and have vered off the path...Ray is also under the impression that this word is effectively a giant parable as am I

Here are a few places that show exactly what Ray had taught on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4132.0.html -------

COMMENT;  NO, neither. We are "begotten anew from above," but we are not literally born again exactly, as we are not yet powerful and invisible like "the WIND." and you honestly believe that one must appear in this state literally  Neither are you "saved" in the past tense. See my paper "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!" where I discuss the "sinner's prayer" near the end and how that no Scriptures says that we are "saved" already in the past tense. This also happens when we are given a new spiritual body in our resurrection from the dead.
What is the new spiritual body ? perhaps unseen ? like the WIND ? see what I mean ?

    Here is the key word to all of these misunderstandings you are having. You are talking the words of Rom. 6 literally, whereas we know that they were inspired of Christ's Holy Spirit, and these words are "spirit" (John 6:63).  Notice verse 11, after Paul explains all that happens when we are spiritually baptized with Jesus, He then shows how these things apply to us:  "Likewise [in like manner as Paul just explained the meaning of all these things in the previous verses]...LIKEWISE no problems

    R-E-C-K-O-N  you also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED TO SIN, but ALIVE unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord"  (Rom. 6:11). "Reckon" means to estimate, suppose, count" etc. something to BE what it is not YET fully comprehended or fully come to pass.

    (emailer's comment)"...I can no longer sin........do I have to repent.........can I sin after being reborn?"

    COMMENT:  We will sin as long as we are living in our flesh and bones and blood bodies.
OK that counters Paul who tells us to "be ye perfect"
Yes, we must repent: "FORGIVE us our debts...." (Matt. 6:12).  We are to come to the place were sin "sin shall not have DOMINION over you"  (Rom. 6:14), but "if we say we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT IN US...if we say that we have NOT SINNED, we make HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US"  (I John 1:8-10).
100%

    God be with you,

    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html --------------

The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).

yeah this has nothing to do with what you maintain we are resurrected into literal bodies

And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.

and i could scripturally add, that we will be Spirit just like The Father who is SPIRIT

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1859.0.html -------------

"So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:  it is sown in weakness it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL body, and there is a SPIRITUAL body"  (I Cor. 15:42-45)

When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical." AMEN

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. AMEN

Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above."  In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born."  Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of  God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom:  "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory"  (Eph. 1:13-14).

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html ------

Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie


Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again".  All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection.  We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.

TECH & PRAC MMMM, YEAH IT IS PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE ( NA... MORE LIKE IMPOSSIBLE TO MAN) AND NEITHER IS IT TECHNICALLY OR SCIENTIFICALLY POSSIBLE,

its spiritual, all of it



God be with you,
Ray

[Ian 155]

Ian,

You wrote:
You know, I have never read a paper from Ray about resurrection... from your reply #45 above.

In my reply #44 above, I quoted a paper from Ray on Resurrection.

As Charlie Chan would say, "Contradiction Please."

John

Well Not So Titled ie "Resurrection Paper" as in "Lake of Fire paper" if you get what I mean.. there are some papers with his thoughts in them

  Well Ian, you are beginning to lose me.  The paper I quoted above, how are Ray's thoughts not in it?  Besides, Ray's thoughts are not the key thing.  The most important things are God's thoughts as clearly expressed by the Scriptures, not our opinions as to what we think the Scriptures say.

hA hA John desparate times hey,  plainly, I Have never actually studied what Ray said on resurrection...I study my word I have read thru and check scriptures out which he uses to support certain statements, but never thought , that I need to study Ray and his interpretations

I havnt even read what you posted on behalf of Ray
I'm all about Jesus

[rick]

Hi Ian,

If you don't believe Ray is right on the resurrection, how do you feel as to the rest of Rays teaching ? Is Ray correct on everyone gets saved eventually ?

Does hell exist as taught by Christendom ? Do you feel Ray is mostly wrong or mostly right ?
What do you say about the rest of Rays papers.


Just curious.

[indianabob]

Yes Ian,
Let's hear more about the future of mankind, put in simple terms for the average reader.
Using your understanding of scripture ONLY and while avoiding teaching.

Just the plain facts as you see them.
We can discuss proofs later, please.

Is God loving enough and powerful enough to grant immortality to all who have been born into this world or not? And if not, why not?

Thank you for your patience with me on this request. Indiana Bob

Hi Ian,

If you don't believe Ray is right on the resurrection, how do you feel as to the rest of Rays teaching ? Is Ray correct on everyone gets saved eventually ?

Does hell exist as taught by Christendom ? Do you feel Ray is mostly wrong or mostly right ?
What do you say about the rest of Rays papers.


Just curious.

[Kat]

NO! let's not hear more of Ian's opinion about what's in the Scripture.

Ian, I guess you really don't get it... this forum is for those who have read Ray's material and can agree with at least most of what he taught. The reason this forum was started, 'to discuss Ray articles' and that helps us develop a base of understanding in the Scripture.

Don't even go there about following a man... Ray is who Jesus Christ provided for us. Certainly it is Ray's interpretation of the Scripture and it was by the Holy Spirit in him and in any of us that bring us together in unity. There has to be a unifying base and Ray used the Scripture, guided by that Spirit in him, to give us much instruction on, not just how to 'see' what's in the Scripture, but how to use it for continuing our own studies.

I am amazed that you sit here with us, trying to tell us what is right, when you don't see any need to even read what Ray had to say, and as Ray liked to say, "unbelievable."

mercy, peace and love
Kat