An interesting insight

[repottinger]

Hello all,
I thought that I might share an interesting insight about universal reconciliation that I had found a little while back while searching web. (I'm quite sure that Ray once mentioned that the person who wrote this was a friend of his, and that Ray had reviewed the manuscript of a book he had written before it was published.) The writer states the following (with my comments in parentheses):
"The doctrine of Free Will (or Arminianism) destroys the truth that Christ died FOR OUR SINS, because Free Will claims we deliver ourselves from our sins by believing in Jesus (while Calvinism, on the other hand, allows for unconditional salvation for a chosen few, but relegates the vast majority to eternal punishment). Subsequent to the cross, our default setting is still eternal torment, and it's UP TO US to believe. This is NOT saving faith."
Thus, the doctrine of free will, if followed to its logical conclusion, would seem, at least in some ways, to make the cross of Christ "of none effect," which I had never really considered before. I know that Ray discussed Calvinism and Arminianism in Part 15-D of the "Lake of Fire" series, but I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me if if he ever addressed this specific point; I would also welcome any comments or thoughts that anyone might have.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

[indianabob]

Hi Randy,
Great question.
I like to begin with the proposition that if I have free will does that mean that I can say NO to God?
No, God, I will not allow you to change me. Yes you created me and all my parts, but now that I am alive I will not allow anyone to change me or adjust my human programming without my agreement. Oh really!
A person who holds that opinion of themselves does not Know God. Not only are they rebelling against God, they actually do not have a sound mind. They cannot reason. They  are lacking basic logic and of course they are blind to reality.

Of course the deceived do not know that they are deceived and are satisfied in their own ignorance. And such were some of us... 1Cor 6:11

[repottinger]

Thank you for the great response, Bob; I can't remember the exact moment when I first began reading about the doctrine of universal reconciliation, but, as I  sometimes tell people, I pretty much knew from the start that, if God exists and the Bible is true, then it had to be the truth.
And, yes, I totally agree with you about the importance of being patient and understanding with the masses of orthodox Christianity, as we were all once similarly deceived.
Sincerely,
Randy

[rick]

Hi Repottinger, 

Learning we don't have free will opens the door to the beginning of understanding the things of God. One of the things Ray said that helped me with my understanding was this ( have you ever made an uncaused choise ?

As I started to meditate on that question Ray had asked I started to understand Rays meaning . From that understanding that God through Ray had given me was very profound and allowed me to really understand that God is not going to hold me responsible for my action in this life , its true I will be held accountable because I like or enjoy the thing's I do.

This understanding helped me to understand why the lake of fire must be for everyone and as Ray has taught , there is a lake of fire but its not what Christendom says it is, like Ray said, its not even in the same ball park .

I will always remain thankful to Ray for the thousands of hours he put into studying the things of God , I have more truth in my life today that otherwise if I were still in Christendom I would not have known.

A few days ago I went back and started to study the twelve spiritual truths paper Ray had done , there is so much understanding there that is so priceless, a true gem, of understanding that keeps me in a state of awe .

These and many other foundational truths that Ray teaches are the difernce between being deceive and enlightened in the things of God the Father and Jesus His dear preious son.

Nice topic, God bless us all who have been called according to His wisdom and counsel.
.

[AwesomeSavior]

"A person may plan his path, but Adonai directs his steps" (Proverbs 16:9). We have a will, but no free will. God is Sovereign over all His creation.

[repottinger]

Thank you for the nice comments, Rick. Yes, I agree--Ray's description of the difference between being held responsible by God as opposed to accountable was really enlightening to me.
Sincerely,
Randy

[repottinger]

Thank you, Awesome--an awesome scripture. (No pun intended!) And another great point about our having will, but not FREE will.
Sincerely,
Randy

[Kat]

It is curious, actually quite miraculous, to think how all humanity are totally convinced that they have a 'free' will and can determine everything that will happen in their lives. The articles about the myth of free will shows just how this could and does happen to the WHOLE world.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html ---------------

THE INVISIBLE HAND OF DECEPTION

Just how does God deceive mankind into thinking that their thoughts and choices are "free and uncaused?" The answer is quite simple: man does not see, feel or perceive in any way, either internally or externally, any force or power causing him to think or do anything other than what he consciously wills. Surely that is enough proof for any carnal-minded person that his will and choices are free from any causality whatsoever. If he can't see, feel, or perceive of anything making or causing him to choose a particular way, then surely, there is nothing there, and his "will is free."

As though a mortal, carnal-minded man can perceive things of the spirit. A little later we will look at a verse that unlocks the secret as to why carnal people cannot understand the reason why they don't have a free will.

God uses means and ways that are not perceived by man in causing his thoughts, will, and choices. What are always miracles from God are perceived by the carnal mind to be merely routine acts of nature.
v

"He [God] causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightnings for the rain; He brings the wind out of His treasuries" (Psalm 135:7).

God, "causes," "makes," and He "brings" into existence the manifestations of nature's powers. Nothing "just happens" without a cause, and God says that He is the cause—every time and always. Yet how many Christians reading this will now believe that it is God Who causes the weather and all catastrophic (even acknowledged by insurance companies as "acts of God")? It is not really "me" and "my" statements that people find difficult, if not impossible to believe, but rather the Scriptures that I quote to them.
v

The workings of Satan have deceived the whole world including the ones whom God would later call to be His elect:

"And then shall that Wicked ['Lawless One'—the beast within all of us] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan [It is not Satan, but is 'after the working of Satan] with all power and signs and lying wanders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God [yes, God Himself] shall send them strong dilusion, that they should believe a lie [Gk: 'the lie']..." (II Thes. 2:9-11).

And just how much of mankind and how much of this world has God given to that same Old Serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, to deceive? 

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD" (Rev. 12:9).
v

God uses Satan over the nations as He wills Satan to will, not as Satan himself "free wills." God uses the nations themselves to will as He wills the nations to will, not as the nations themselves "free will." If we are to believe the Scriptures rather than the heresy of men, where does Satan or any of the nations possess "free will?"
v

"God is the Potter; we are the clay." When will we ever humble ourselves and believe the Word of God? This is GOD'S metaphor, not mine. Clay does not possess the power to thwart the plans of the Potter. Yet Christians profess that they possess a power that can thwart the purpose of God, and they even go so far as to say that God Himself gave to them this God-thwarting power. Do some think that when they exercise their "free will" contrary to God's purpose that maybe "THEY are the Potter and God is the clay?"

And so, God has "obscured" his heart from seeing and understanding this Spiritual Truth. It takes a supernatural revelation from God to "spiritually discern" this deepest of human mysteries. And it is for the very fact that it is from the very HEART of man that he presumes to take to himself a presumed power GREATER THAN GOD HIMSELF, that He will "PUNISH HIS [MAN'S] ARROGANT AND HAUGHTY HEART."

We are "accountable" for what comes out of our arrogant heart, but God is "responsible" for giving us such an heart in the first place.
v

Free will? Man possesses free will? Balderdash! Man has no more a free will by which he can go against, contrary to, or thwart the plan and intentions of God Almighty than could the king of Assyria. And be warned: God will "PUNISH the fruit of the arrogant heart" of all those who presume to have powers above what their Maker has given them.

"Shall the ax [the one being used by God] boast itself against Him that hews with it?" (Isa. 10:15).

"Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?" (Rom. 9:20). 

"And the vessel [humanity] that He made of clay [Adam] was marred ['ruined'—and its heart was made 'subject to vanity {futility, failure}... and in 'bondage of corruption', Rom. 8:20-21], in the hand of the Potter: so He made it again ANOTHER vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it" (Jer. 18:4).

Every vessel of humanity is first made "marred in the hand of the Potter." ... "the carnal mind is enmity against God," ... "for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts." Every vessel must be refashioned--regenerated, converted, judged, purged, and born again of the Spirit.
v

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24)

Once one becomes a member of God's very elect, he can be deceived no more.

Don't you be deceived. This verse does not say: "Satan, which deceives the whole world (except the two billion twenty-first century professing Christians of the world)." No, Satan deceives "the whole world," including the two billion professing Christians. How many have escaped the deception of Satan by the use of their "free will?"  Not one man possesses a will by which he can freely resist Satan. If we are to "resist the Devil so that he flees from us," we will need the power of God's Spirit in us.
v

Most will not believe how perfect and exact God's plan is. God's plan is operating on a pre-arranged schedule. It cannot be changed or altered one iota, ever!

God created man in a "marred" condition, but God's plan has no mars whatsoever. It was not wrong or a sin for God to create mankind in a "marred" condition.  It was a perfect plan. It is now and always will be a perfect plan.

God has always worked all things after the counsel of His Own will. His plan needs no midstream adjustments, corrections, or refinements. It cannot be improved upon. It cannot be added to or detracted from. IT IS PERFECT.  GOD IS PERFECT. ALL WILL TURN OUT PERFECT. WE ALL WILL BE PERFECT BECAUSE GOD WILL BE "ALL IN ALL"! I believe it. I hope you do too.
----------------------------------------------------------

It is such a blessing to know/believe that God is sovereign and totally in charge of His creation. But to comprehend that He makes mankind in a carnal conditions that is "enmity against God" (Rom 8:7) and must go through this "experience of evil" (Ecc 1:13) first, so that eventually we all will be humbled, is a powerful knowledge to have. Because it sets you free from the worry about everything that's happening in this world... it seems like a totally out of control mess, but we know it is not, there is peace in knowing that. As Ray said His plan is perfect as He is perfect and we all will see the wonder of it all put right one day.

Isa 25:7  And He will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations.
v. 8  He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of His people He will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[repottinger]

Thank you very much for sharing those wonderful insights of Ray, Kat. Yes, it is absolutely fascinating the to see how so many Christians are totally blinded to God's plan at this time, but also important and inspiring to understand that it is all a part of the means by which He will work out the eventual salvation of all.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

[Doug]

Hi Kat,

I too thank you for posting Ray's teaching. It is something we cannot read and meditate on enough. It brings about peace of mind that can only come from our Father. It is such a humbling thing to be in the hands of our God.

Doug

[Mike Gagne]

John 16:13   (KJV)

13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

Joh 8:32  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[Dave in Tenn]

Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Taking scripture out of the mouths of preachers a few verses at a time.   

[Dave in Tenn]

Randy, John wrote:


1Jn 4:10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.  (a blow to arminianism, which, when taken with other scripture becomes a death blow.)

having already written:

1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.  (da blow to 'calvinisms' limited atonement, which when combined with other scripture becomes a death blow.)

If Jesus came to be the Savior of the world, and if He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, then to 'believe' he did not, cannot not or will not is to 'make the cross of none effect'.

-------------------- 

Here's a link to a wonderful email exchange.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#fireman

And the exchange:

Just to address your fireman analogy.  My point was that your universal salvation message makes NO FIREMEN necessary.  If the fireman knew that GOD was saving everyone anyway, why would they risk everything to do what God had already taken care of?  YOU are saying that everyone will be saved, so why send any firemen?  In other words, why did the apostles (firemen) risk their very lives to spread a gospel when God had already paid for everyone's salvation and they would be saved regardless of whether they were preached to or not (effectively saving everyone in the building anyway)?

I agree that Christ died for all, and I understand that his death was NECESSARY PAYMENT for sin - I never said otherwise.  Salvation through Christ is AVAILABLE to all and it is God's desire that all will be saved, but a distinction has to be made between God's permissive and absolute wills.  God allows certain things to happen (permissive will), such as starvation, murder, etc. even though it is his desire that these things not happen.

This is an essential doctrine if you believe that we have free will.

I could go on, but I wanted to primarily address the fireman analogy- it is YOUR doctrine that makes the fireman (apostles, preachers) unnecessary because those in danger will ALL be saved regardless of the efforts of the firemen.

Layne

[Ray Replies]

Dear Layne:

Listen carefully once more, this is not rocket science.

My fireman analogy was perfect, it is you who are being stubborn. Have you ever witnessed a burning building in person or on the news where the firemen stood in front of the burning building with their hands folded watching people screaming for help from the windows but doing nothing? Have you ever then seen God supernaturally pull dozens of people from the burning building while the firemen only watched?  I don't think so. And I wouldn't believe you if your said that you did.  That is what firemen DO -- THEY SAVE PEOPLE FROM BURNING BUILDINGS!  Jesus Christ is the "Saviour of the world" (I John 4:14) -- that's what Jesus DOES -- HE SAVES THE SINNERS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!!!

Now then, He has not as of YET saved all sinners in the whole world, but give Him time and HE WILL!! Jesus Christ IS THE FIREMAN, if you will, who saves people!  My analogy was perfect, you just didn't get it.

And once again on your other point: If it IS NECESSARY to send ministers into the world to 'save a few,' by what insane logic does it become 'UN-NECESSARY' to send ministers into the world to "SAVE ALL?"  Listen closely.  God uses the "foolishness of preaching" as a vehicle to bring the gospel to the people. THAT IS HOW God does it. He could do it Himself, supernaturally, but He chooses to use the foolishness of preaching to accomplish it.  And whether He is saving just a few at this time and more later and still more even yet later, He chooses His own creatures to spread the good news.

I don't find the phrase "permissive will" in the Scriptures. I don't find the phrase "free-will" with regards to our will being free from causality. Certainly there were voluntary offerings in the Old testament. What actually is there in our brain, mind, spirit, soul, or will that enables it to makes choices and decision THAT HAVE NO CAUSE?  This is a physiological impossibility. The first edict of the universe is 'cause and effect." That's the way ALL OF GODS OPERATE.  Now then, is it possible to make a choice, make a decision, or even think a thought that DID NOT have an influencing CAUSE behind it? No there isn't! Who then ARE our wills caused to will as they do?  External and internal circumstances -- millions and billions of them, and none of which we created ourselves. Who did create the circumstances of life and the universe?

"For it is GOD Who is OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

God does NOT operate by two sets of "will" -- one a strong will and the other a weak wish! That is utter nonsense and foolishness.

Of course "this is an essential doctrine if you believe that we have a free will." But we DON'T have a "free" will and therefore all the unscriptural doctrines associated with it fall flat on their faces.  The WHOLE WORLD believes that man has a free will. Even the pagans and heathens. All peoples and all nations primarily subscribe to this unscriptural teaching. No wonder God has said that the WISDOM (not the foolishness, but the WISDOM) of this world (and "free will" is definitely one of the wisdom's of THIS WORLD) are STUPIDITY  (Greek: moria=insipity--STUPIDITY)! (I Cor. 3:19)!

You think I Tim. 2:4 and a dozens other Scriptures like it are not presenting God's will, but rather just a weak wish?  Do you believe a more accurate translation of I Tim. 2:4 would go like this: "For this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wishes and hopes with no possibility of ever  bringing it to pass, that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth"(?). Since that is the way that you interpret it, would didn't God just inspire it that way in the first place?

Listen carefully to me Layne. It is blasphemy to demean God's declarations by watering-down God's will to wishful thinking that will NEVER COME TO PASS!

When God SPEAKS, OR SAYS, OR DECLARES, OR WILLS, OR WISHES, OR DESIRES a future goal, IT WILL COME TO PASS. Who are you to deny God's declarations?

"Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF, THE WORD IS DONE OUT OF MY MOUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SHALL NOT RETURN. That unto ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR" (Isaiah 45:22-23)!!!

"Remember the former things of old: for I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE; I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE LIKE ME. DECLARING the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are NOT YET DONE ['I will also give thee for a light to the GENTILES, that thou mayest be MY SALVATION UNTO THE END OF THE EARTH'!!! It is yet coming Isa. 49:6] saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE:  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I HAVE SPOKEN IT [as in I Tim. 2:4!], I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS:  I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT" (ISa. 46:5-11)!!!

Layne!  You need a real change of heart regarding you Creator and His Word! You are parroting Mystery Babylon the Great.  Show me a "weak wish" in those Scriptures I presented you with in Isaiah 45, 46, and 49!  God Almighty has declared that He will SAVE THE WORLD -- ALL MANKIND, and you declare "Sorry Lord, but it will NEVER HAPPEN -- just WISHFUL THINKING ON YOUR PART, GOD"!  Don't you tremble just a little when you teach such shameful things regarding your God and Saviour?  I want to shame you, I am trying my best to shame you. I am trying to pull you of the excessive trials of fire that you will go through if you don't repent of this slander of God's character!

Seriously, Layne, I can SHOW YOU from the Scriptures how God's plan is operating. God is not bashful about DRAGGING  people to repentance!! Witness Saul. Was Saul's will "free" to spit in God's face when He SMASHED HIM TO THE EARTH WITH A BLINDING AND AWESOME LIGHT?  Paul said that he was the WORST OF SINNERS -- he wasn't bragging, he was totally honest. HE WAS THE WORST SINNER THAT HAD EVER LIVED!! And God converted him in less than ONE SECOND!!! "Permissive will" my foot. God can save ANY AND EVERY SINNER IN THE WORLD IN AN INSTANT, JUST AS HE DID WITH SAUL, AND HE CAN DO IT ANY TIME HE CHOOSES! Who are YOU to deny God's Word?

When God chooses someone to come to Christ in repentance -- HE WILL COME!!

"NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SEND ME DRAW [Greek: 'helko'=DRAG] him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44).

So much for you "free will."

"Ye have NOT chosen me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU..." (John 15:16).

Where's your free will in that Scripture. It isn't that the Scriptures don't teach the absolute Sovereignty of God, it's just that people do NOT APPROVE!! People do not approve of the Word of God and people certainly don't approve the operations of God, and so they invent more and more unscriptural doctrines that exalt the carnal mind and flesh of man!

Well, I gotta go, Layne. Maybe give it some serious thought without immediately coming up with a pre-packaged middle of the road fundamentalist rebuttal.

God be with your spirit as you meditate on these grand themes and compare Scripture with Scripture.

Ray

   

[repottinger]

I agree with you, Doug; it truly is a humbling thing to be in the hands of our God, especially when we realize His stupendous plans for each one of us.
Sincerely,
Randy
P.S. I'm sorry--I would have replied to these postings sooner, but I was away for the weekend and just got back online today.

[repottinger]

Thank you for the great scriptures, Michael and Dave, and also for the e-mail exchange with Ray, Dave; I've read it before--it's fantastic!
Sincerely,
Randy

[repottinger]

Hello all,
Another thought on the e-mail exchange referenced by Dave:
One of the things that I found so helpful about it is where Ray cited verses from Isaiah to show in more general terms that God is sovereign over all things by virtue of His unbreakable will and power (as opposed to verses like those Ray cited in the same exchange from I Timothy and I John, which specifically show that God will eventually save all of humanity). I find both types completely convincing, but in different ways. Still, as so many visitors to this site have come to learn, only those whom God has chosen to understand these things of the Spirit in this life will be able to do so (though all, of course, will ultimately do so).
Your brother in Christ,
Randy