Should we be asking for forgiveness.

[Mike Gagne]

Hi Kat, I would just like to add to this....

I have taken the privilege of copying this from Rays papers.

Every vessel of humanity is first made "marred in the hand of the Potter." ... "the carnal mind is enmity against God," ... "for out of the heart proceed evil thoughts." Every vessel must be refashioned--regenerated, converted, judged, purged, and born again of the Spirit.


Im not sure but Im thinking can something that is marred knows its marred unless God shows that which is marred that it is marred and if God is showing something that it is marred them it would stand to reason that God is working in that persons life that is marred.

Does that make sense ?   

Yes I think you are right, all start out "marred," carnal and in darkness.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You should read how the church and commentaries twist that Scripture ("the vessel that He made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter") to make it fit what 'they' believe. They think God would/could not make us in such a 'damaged' conditions from the start, oh no it's our supposed free will that brings us to that. Their manipulation of that Scripture reminds me of a famous quote, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave... when first we practice to deceive."

The world is totally deceived and of course a deceived person really believes the lies they're fed, that's the nature of deception and so what they preach is deception as well. It truly is the blind leading the blind.

Matt 15:14  Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

But what they cannot comprehend or phantom is that it is God who has "marred" us from the beginning. The veil of deception so obscures the truth and blinds the world that they are completely lose in darkness.

2Cor 3:14  But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
v. 15  But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
v. 16  Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Only when one "turns to the Lord" and we know that can only be done when the Father draws you to Him (John 6:44), and there are very few being drawn and having their minds open to the truth now... and yes shown that they are "marred." 

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

The world is still waiting in darkness, BUT there is hope.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
v. 20  For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of Him who subjected it, in hope
v. 21  that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

It seems in showing us that we are marred is a process

Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As His work continues in me I am ever careful to remember to take heed, because I don't know what part of the beast is about to be revealed to me!


Lots of great post here, thank you everyone.

[lareli]

If you do not forgive others God will not forgive you.

3 Witnesses
Matt 6:15, Matt 18:35, Mark 11:26

[rick]

If you do not forgive others God will not forgive you.

3 Witnesses
Matt 6:15, Matt 18:35, Mark 11:26

Hi Largeli,

I'm reviewing Ray's free will series again, I know Ray said one will not stop doing what they do until God says they will stop.

I'm wondering if somehow I misconstrue what Ray had taught on the subject of free will, all have a will, everyone's will is subjected to Gods will.  What I'm trying to understand now is the fact that I do have a will and is my will subjected to Gods will 24/7 / 365.

My thinking is along these lines, not if but when I sin can I say God made me sin ? God forbid I should believe such a thing, it was my choice to make.  Now, Ray said if a man rapes a women, one cannot say it was God who ordained that sin to happen so in other words God does not ordain sin.

Well what else does a person do in the course of their life that God does not ordain? Ray teaches that no one has ever made an uncaused choice so we can conclude that every choice one makes has a cause behind it which is true but its possible to say everything I do is of God in that He is the creator but we know not everything is by God.........God does not ordain sin nor has God given anyone permission to sin.   

A key thing to me that Ray mentioned was he ate some girl scot cookies that had nothing to do with God, in other words God doesn't say what one will eat or perhaps even wear.


We are not mindless robots God created , we take in information we process that information and we make a choice. We make choices according to our circumstances but here Ray eluded circumstances concerning him eating girl scot cookies, did God know he would eat girl scot cookies at that specific time and date perhaps but I don't know for sure one way or the other.


You gave three scriptures saying if we do not forgive then God will not forgives us our sin/s which according to scripture is true, now here comes the big BUT,  is Ray right in saying one will not stop sinning until God says they will ? Not being forgiving is a sin is it not ?


So if someone offends me,  is it up to God if I forgive that person or can I, not being a mindless robot choice to forgive that person whether God wills me to forgive that person or not ?

Is it possible to say God did when God did not ? Anyways I'll be chilling in the free will section for the time being.

This topic was not about forgiving someone but should we ask forgiveness for ourselves knowing Christ already paid for the sins of the world especially those who believe.          

God bless.   

[Dave in Tenn]

Rick: 

Firstly, "forgiveness" is not the equivalent of "salvation".  Salvation is FROM something.  Salvation is a process.  God's forgiveness is the first 'step' of that process in salvation from sin.  The next two are 'repentance' and 'cleansing'.  None of those words are theological terms.  They are sound language.  Since "salvation" is a process, it begins and ends and has a middle.  Every step of that process has a beginning an end and a middle.  Some are being "saved" now.  All will be saved one day.  But nobody who hasn't undergone the "process" will ever be "saved" until they have.  It's axiomatic.  That's what "salvation" IS.

Just listened to this today.  Listen and get far more than I can communicate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5YCfZQ7XfU

Secondly, why wouldn't you ask for forgiveness?  Are you afraid of breaking some theological rule?  If you know your sins are forgiven, give thanks.  If you believe that until you forgive, you won't be forgiven...then at least you know where to start.  "FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES..."  The Lord Jesus taught us to pray that.

Thirdly, a question for you.  You say God is sovereign over your will.  If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil?  What about evil over good?  What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?   

[judy]

Rick, I'm a little late here but I was dealing with a sin that just was eating my guts out. I discovered something, oh, and by the way, i always agree with God about my sinning. How can i not when the darn thing tortures me. I quit saying, "forgive me" because I would do it again and that's when the spiral downward started. I was FOCUSING on the sin and NOT on God. Good trick of the evil one to get your eyes off God. So, I took my eyes off the sin, believed I was forgiven  because He is the Author and Finisher of our faith and our life and He was in charge. Once I delved back whole heartedly into the Lord, the sin ceased to have control. Does it still tempt, yes, but it doesn't have me in it's claws anymore. I now have a choice where before I was a slave to it. It's hard to explain when something as dramatic as this happens and put it into words.

[rick]

Rick: 

Firstly, "forgiveness" is not the equivalent of "salvation".  Salvation is FROM something.  Salvation is a process.  God's forgiveness is the first 'step' of that process in salvation from sin.  The next two are 'repentance' and 'cleansing'.  None of those words are theological terms.  They are sound language.  Since "salvation" is a process, it begins and ends and has a middle.  Every step of that process has a beginning an end and a middle.  Some are being "saved" now.  All will be saved one day.  But nobody who hasn't undergone the "process" will ever be "saved" until they have.  It's axiomatic.  That's what "salvation" IS.

Just listened to this today.  Listen and get far more than I can communicate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5YCfZQ7XfU

Secondly, why wouldn't you ask for forgiveness?  Are you afraid of breaking some theological rule?  If you know your sins are forgiven, give thanks.  If you believe that until you forgive, you won't be forgiven...then at least you know where to start.  "FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES..."  The Lord Jesus taught us to pray that.

Thirdly, a question for you.  You say God is sovereign over your will.  If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil?  What about evil over good?  What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?

Hi Dave,

First , I thank you for the link you put up, I listened to that link twice this morning, what a beautiful way to spend my Sunday morning as I enjoyed the topic very much.

You asked me three questions Dave, 1st why wouldn't you ask for forgiveness? I do ask forgiveness Dave but my original question or statement was referring to Christ paid for the sins of the world and if Christ already paid for the sins of the world that would mean before anyone sins they are already forgiven before they ask to be forgiven.

But there are those scriptures that Largeli put up and cannot be denied  and also there is another scripture that says if we ask forgiveness Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us .

So, I'm not as sure about my original statement as I first was when I had ask that question.

2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will.  If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil?  What about evil over good?  )


Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?

Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?

I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.

Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.


God bless.

[Dave in Tenn]

2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will.  If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil?  What about evil over good?  )


Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?

Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?

I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.

Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.


God bless.

Rick, this is the root of your 'struggle' with this issue.  From your answer, though you 'know' some truths hidden from the world, you don't really believe in God.  At least not the God revealed in Scripture.

I suppose it's also possible you didn't really read the question.  So I'll give you another shot at it.

If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil?  What about evil over good?  What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?   

[rick]

2nd question you asked ( You say God is sovereign over your will.  If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil?  What about evil over good?  )


Yes, I do believe God is sovereign over my will but if God did not exist would I be free to choice good over evil or evil over good ?

Well, would we not still be operating under cause and effect ? What I mean is if it rains ( cause )
would not the effect be to build a house ?

I would have to say ( free will ) is not an option.

Also you did ask ( What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy ) there would have to be a cause for me to choose a particular flavor I suppose.


God bless.

Rick, this is the root of your 'struggle' with this issue.  From your answer, though you 'know' some truths hidden from the world, you don't really believe in God.  At least not the God revealed in Scripture.

I suppose it's also possible you didn't really read the question.  So I'll give you another shot at it.

If God did not exist, would your will then be free to choose good over evil?  What about evil over good?  What about what flavor of Girl Scout cookies to buy?

Hi Dave,


I don't agree with your statement Dave, I believe God does exist , I believe in creation by design. 
You asked a hypothetical question which I should of know better to answer but nonetheless I did
answer.

Its not that I don't believe but rather I don't fully understand, now if not understanding means not believing then I don't believe as you say but if not understanding means God is still showing me then where is your patience for us who are less fortunate than you?

If your insinuating that unless I understand everything that Ray understood I'm not a believer in Christ then so be it but this I do know Dave, it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with Christ, it is God who does the calling and saving, it is God who gives us our faith and faith is not of ourselves but of God.

So the real question is not if God calls us but when God calls us, you talked about a beginning a middle and end Ray talked about this age or the next age, I say I don't believe as Christendom does, you say I don't believe as you do, so I guess I'm in the middle but what I'm trying to understand is the middle of what ? Belief or unbelief the milk of the word or the meat of the word, life and death.

There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I'm at but where I'm going but I won't get there until God says so.

God bless.

[Dave in Tenn]

The Apostle John postulated "without God".  Why can't I?  Much of the world's people have questioned if there is a God, and if so, what kind of God.  Don't wrestle away from the question because it makes you uncomfortable.

Scripture tells us that there is God.  And it tells us what kind of God and what He does and has done.  I'm saying unequivocally that by your answer, you don't believe in 'that' God.   

You said, "There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I'm at but where I'm going but I won't get there until God says so."

That's what I'm trying to do for you...be one who God may use to help you 'get there'.  I don't 'understand' all things either.  But I do 'believe' the most basic of truths concerning God and me.  The way you've answered tells me you do not.  You SAY you do (and much of what you say is truth), but you don't.

[rick]

The Apostle John postulated "without God".  Why can't I?  Much of the world's people have questioned if there is a God, and if so, what kind of God.  Don't wrestle away from the question because it makes you uncomfortable.

Scripture tells us that there is God.  And it tells us what kind of God and what He does and has done.  I'm saying unequivocally that by your answer, you don't believe in 'that' God.   

You said, "There sure are a lot of gray areas in life but I know God will make all things plain to understand one day for people like me. To me its not so much about where I'm at but where I'm going but I won't get there until God says so."

That's what I'm trying to do for you...be one who God may use to help you 'get there'.  I don't 'understand' all things either.  But I do 'believe' the most basic of truths concerning God and me.  The way you've answered tells me you do not.  You SAY you do (and much of what you say is truth), but you don't.

Hi Dave,

You say the apostle John postulated, which means,

(  postulate >verb 1 suggest or assume the existence, fact, or truth of (something) as a basis for reasoning or belief. 2 nominate or elect to an ecclesiastical office subject to the sanction of a higher authority. >noun a thing postulated.
-DERIVATIVES postulation >noun.
-ORIGIN Latin postulare 'ask'.)


"without God " why can't I ? Referring to yourself, I never said you could not Dave, I just think it leads back to Christendom, don't wish to get involved in hypothetical's and neither did Ray.

But to entertain your question I would need more information, if God does not exist, does the universe still operate with the law of cause and effect ?  Does the law of cause and effect go out the window with God too or do they stay in effect ? If they stay in effect how can that be without God who created the law of cause and effect ?

If the law of cause and effect do not exist how would that affect us ? Would we be free of causality where there is no cause ?  Where there are no causes can there be effects ? Or would we now become the cause who effects all things ?

Would the law of gravity still be in effect without the law of cause and effect ? Is it possible to exist without the law of gravity ?

I just don't see how you or John can take God out of the equation without coming back to where you started before you took God out of the equation, its just circles   

 
Its not I'm uncomfortable with the question, its just not a possibility, if God does not exist then we cannot exist either, there is no life no universe outside of God.


You say what if this I say what if that, it just goes in circles. If you say I don't believe in God then to you I don't believe in God.

God bless, from the God you say I don't believe in. 

[Dave in Tenn]

You said, "Its not I'm uncomfortable with the question, its just not a possibility, if God does not exist then we cannot exist either, there is no life no universe outside of God."

Bingo.

So why do you answer the question theologically?  Shouldn't the very fact that "without Him there is nothing..." be the basis of your understanding of the Sovereignty of God and (as a corollary) the myth of 'free'-will?  Why draw so many square circles?  Can't you see that all your 'reasoning' is in itself hypothetical? 

In truth, I don't actually KNOW what you believe.  I just know how you answered the question--and it's a perfectly FINE question to ask.  Your ANSWER assumed something existed if God did not.  In truth, neither good, nor evil, nor choice, nor YOU to make the choice--not even Girl Scout cookies--exist if He does not.  What could possibly be more 'basic' than that?

AT THE VERY LEAST, make your answer to the questions most common in the world MAKE SENSE.  Even better, THINK ON THESE THINGS.  It is one thing to think about nothing, and something altogether different to think about "nothing".  How can you "understand God" if you don't at some point think about NO GOD?  I'm not talking about exploring atheism...that's just another -ism.  I'm talking about BELIEVERS reading all the words of John 1 and doing what believers do--believe.

 


     

[Dave in Tenn]

Eight years ago, I was agnostic (at best) leaning strongly toward the 'belief' that God did not exist.  While I was (and well before that too) I didn't like the 'god' I thought did/might exist.  I thought he was a finger-waggling, vain, capricious, old guy who couldn't even make up his mind if he 'loved' us or 'hated' us, yet he expected me to love him...and not just 'love him', but love him with all my heart and soul and mind.  I told him to either 'fix' me or leave me the hell alone.

Before all that, I was a faithful, church-going christian.  Though I struggled with sin, I did what I thought I was supposed to do...and I 'knew' a few 'truths' even then.

In both of those situations, though, I had the same 'mind'.  It was a 'mind' that didn't think it mattered too much if there was a God close-by.  You could never have convinced me as a christian that this was my mind, but what is worse than 'thinking' such a thought is living like that.  And trust me, LIVING AS IF GOD DIDN'T MATTER characterizes most of my life...in church and after.  In church, I would never had said such a thing.  After, I was at leas honest.

Rick said asking the question leads back to babylon.  That's not my experience at all. 

I asked a similar question on facebook a few months ago:  Where would you be without God?  I got a few replies...some from traditional christians, and some from people I might have wished had 'thought' more about it.  Nobody said, "Dave, I'd be nowhere at all." 

Hey, I forgive them all...firstly, it's 'facebook'.  Who goes there for 'deep thinking'?  Secondly, because I know what they meant.  Without God's help, or His grace, or His 'looking out after me', I'd be in a pickle.  All true enough.  Even the one who said she'd be burning in hell...I know she's blind as well as thinking the former things--God's help, grace, looking out for me.

But I've had the 'mind' that says 'whether or not God exists, I keep on going.'  It wasn't until I BELIEVED John 1 (a faith given freely to me, even as it had been almost completely wiped out) that I even began to 'understand' what I was 'believing' from B-T, and well before I even knew there was a forum.  That's the 'happy' facts.

The sad fact is that even today I still BEHAVE as if God's very existence didn't matter.  I have to slow down, stop, and THINK to keep from behaving like just another beast of the field.  Also, no matter what I am doing, He 'graces' me to 'think on these things'. just from the things, events, people He brings into my life  That's the way i KNOW that He isn't finished with me yet.

John 'thought about' "without Him..."  If he hadn't, he wouldn't have been able to write those words...no more-so than you can write "purple elephant" without thinking of a purple elephant.  Thankfully, he knew the truth about "without Him..." and didn't finish his sentence without sharing it with us who believe, and for those to whom God is giving faith.  We might can 'scan over' "purple elephant" without it affecting us, just as we can scan over "without Him nothing" without it affecting us.  I know it can be done, because I've not only done it, but I've lived life because I did it.

[rick]

Hi Dave,

Eight years ago I was still believing as Christendom does, eight years ago I believe in hell and I also knew I had to many issues to be heaven bound so I lived in fear of death.

I respect you for telling me the truth of your life, not all but many things you said I can relate to Dave!

The more I learn of God the more I realize I don't know of God, like scripture says, who can search the depths  of God ?

Like you I too am learning but we both know its God who calls us and its God who gives us the increase in knowledge.
            
You recited back to me my words to you ( Rick said asking the question leads back to Babylon.  That's not my experience at all.) I read where Ray said John look back, I'm looking forward now but God will cause me to look back in His appointed time for me to look back.

There are so many things I don't know nor understand about God, I only know I reject the lies I was once taught by Christendom.

Because of the foolishness of Rays teachings I only know I will never think of God in the same way I used to. ( that's a good thing ) I know you can relate to this I say.

Eight years ago you were agnostic today you're a moderator on this forum of God's truth, freaky isn't it. All this stuff Ray taught freaks me out in a good way, who could believe how different God is from the god of Christendom we were all taught ?

Seriously, why am I here? Why is anyone of us here ? More important, how have any of us come to believe what Ray said as truth ? You know as well as I do, its not by chance where here, its by Gods appointed time that we are here and believing what Ray taught is a miracle in itself.

When one believes a lie to be truth their whole life how is it possible to recognize the truth when it come ones way let alone believe it ?

I don't know if my belief in God is in accordance with His truths or if I'm self deceived, I only know God is a Good God and that regardless of what I do, think or say He has my best interest at heart.

I can admire and love the God Ray has presented in the appointed time God says I will and yes I come to understand my will is subjected to His will 24/7/365 days a year for all my life in this age and every other age to come and yes I'm not perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect, not yet anyways.

God bless you Dave. 

[Jeff]

It's funny - I was walking back from lunch and considering the sin in my life - past and present.  And the first thing I see is this thread.

Is our "sin" really meant for our spiritual growth?  At first I thought "yes", but I couldn't really answer why I thought that.  It then occurred to me that, yes, trials and tribulations can cause us to sin, but it's the trials the allow us to grow.  The sin shouldn't be there - it is, of course, due to our nature, but the goal is to not sin.

The reason I was thinking about this is because the sin in my past has harmed me.  Some things more than others, but nonetheless there has been lasting damage.  It took something away from me.

God forgives me, but I have difficulty not being affected emotionally by the sins I've committed, because I live with the damage every day.  Some things you can forget and others will always be there.

So, even though God forgives me, some effects of sin, can't simply be forgotten.  Some things I will live with until Christ changes me and that has great impact on me.

[Dave in Tenn]

Hey, Jeff. 

We were never meant to be forever naked and ignorant in the garden.  God has a much higher plan and purpose for His creation.  Sin plays a part in that.  Whether is 'should' or 'shouldn't' be there is really a non-issue for me.  It simply IS.  That's the way God planned it.  That's the way God wants it to be in every life.

But there is a time and a season for every purpose under heaven.  A time to sin, and a time to refrain from sinning.

Yes...sin harms.  Boy oh boy, do some sins harm far worse than others.  In fact, some sins harm us so much they pour out of us and harm others.  But I'm not sure we're supposed to forget.  That's God's job.  I think we're supposed to 'look back' and see the wisdom of God in dragging us through all this $#%@.  Maybe while we're still being dragged is when we have to 'look back' to Him and what He did.  Not least (by a long-shot) that He did was die for us.

I can also understand the difficulty with emotion.  I feel it more and more, but there's a limit.  I have to believe this "limit" is so that I walk by faith, not by sight.  I don't know what else to think, because I am not ever, ever again going to "fake it", God willing.

I love the 'hope' you ended with. 

Hang in there, Jeff.

[Jeff]

Hi Dave,

Yes, very true - the sin is there and we're meant to sin:

Ro 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

I had this thought in my head that I should let go of the past, and I realized that some of it can't be shed - which probably has it's own purpose.

I think my initial thought came to remind me of the fact that we sin, because we're meant to sin, but we strive to overcome. And that doesn't necessarily mean we can or should let go:

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." (Gal 5:16)

A constant with me is to attempt to go around something rather than through it...