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Author Topic: Doubt  (Read 1422 times)

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lauriellen

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Doubt
« on: August 11, 2015, 11:52:17 AM »

I remember listening to Ray talk about how that sometimes this life and creation all seems so bizarre, that if not for the fact that he was 'here', alive, that he would never believe it. I am also going thru such a hard time of doubts an just not being able to wrap my mind around everything that is happening and why. Because of my sons continued illness, I have spent quite a lot of time in the Dr's office and have lots of time to ponder on our human existence. Yesterday while waiting I began to look at the detailed diagrams of our human anatomy. WOW! How could any being be smart enough to build such a complex thing? It is truly mind boggling. As I looked at our complex systems, it occurred to me that, even such a complex, perfectly tuned machine as our body, does not have the capacity to produce life itself. Dr's could take a perfect body (that is dead for whatever reason), hook it up to all the life support machines available, such as breathing machines, artificial heart and blood circulation machines, whatever is available, and it would still not make that body come to life. Which makes me ponder, the 'life' had to come from somewhere? In other words, a body can not generate it's own life.  I found a couple of verses that seem to agree that a body is just a vessel that has no life of itself, that our bodies do not generate life:
 Job 34:14  If God took back the breath that he breathed into us,
Job 34:15  we humans would die and return to the soil. (cev)

Psa 146:4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his purposes perish.

It seems to me that our bodies don't die first and then the breath leaves (as depicted in science), but that God actively takes back the breath that He gave, and THEN our bodies return to the earth?
I don't really know where I am going with this, but this thought seemed to take away some of my doubt. I would appreciate any input or share where Ray may have taught more along this subject.

I appreciate you all.
Lauriellen

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Extol

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2015, 12:39:34 PM »

Hi Lauriellen,

Somewhere (I think maybe in the "Random" discussion of 2007?) Ray was talking about the wonder of the human body. I don't remember the exact words (couldn't find it in Transcripts), but he said something like:

 The greatest computer will never be as wonderful as the human body. Scientists can make marvelous machines, but they'll never be able to make a computer that will be as marvelous as the human body; because computers are run by electricity, and our bodies are run by spirit.


 8)
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Kat

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2015, 01:53:09 PM »

Hi lauriellen,

Yes this creation is a marvel, the more you look into any aspect of it the more astounding it becomes. The mind of God is truly beyond the scope of human comprehension.

Isa 55:9  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

That's what makes our God so wonderful to me, He is not limited (well maybe only self-imposed limits), "the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him" (2Ch 2:6; 6:18, 1 Ki 8:27). He is far above all that we can imagine and He is perfect... and He wants to bring us into that perfection to share it with Him!

It is so interesting to me how absolutely God is working out every single little detail in our lives, so that we are caused/guided to have the exact life we need, to make us into what He wants us to be, so there will be all these unique individuals. We have such a glorious future, the whole human race will someday enjoy a perfect communion with God, it doesn't get any better than that!

Quote
Dr's could take a perfect body (that is dead for whatever reason), hook it up to all the life support machines available, such as breathing machines, artificial heart and blood circulation machines, whatever is available, and it would still not make that body come to life. Which makes me ponder, the 'life' had to come from somewhere? In other words, a body can not generate it's own life.
Job 34:14  If God took back the breath that he breathed into us,
Job 34:15  we humans would die and return to the soil. (cev)

Psa 146:4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his purposes perish.

It seems to me that our bodies don't die first and then the breath leaves (as depicted in science), but that God actively takes back the breath that He gave, and THEN our bodies return to the earth?
I don't really know where I am going with this, but this thought seemed to take away some of my doubt. I would appreciate any input or share where Ray may have taught more along this subject.

That's why I do not have any concern that someday man will create 'artificial' life in robots. Man does not have the capacity to give life/awareness/consciousness, not even to those humans that are considered 'brain dead,' that "spirit of life" must come from God.

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Gen 7:22  All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.

Job 33:4  The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

We can see that it is 'spirit' from God that gives life to all breathing things, it is a gift from the Almighty that gives all creatures this experience of physical life in this world. It does come with that first breathe and wakes us up to life, just as it goes with the last breath and then we 'sleep,' with no consciousness at all, until God gives that spirit/soul back to us at resurrection.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2899.0.html -------

COMMENT:  The spirit HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD, he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1594.0.html --------

Every person (and animal) has a "spirit."  There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL.  God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1675.0.html ---------

Dear John:
    Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46;  I Cor. 2:11; etc.).  There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 12:29:25 PM by Kat »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2015, 03:22:29 PM »

The more I studied biology the more I was convinced in the belief of a Higher Power, Creator--God.

I am reminded in medical school each day of this marvelous Fact. Faith is certainly now a solid ground beneath my feet because there is no denying His existence. I suppose I am one of the few blessed people to know God as intimately as I do and to also have knowledge of the intricate workings of life from the molecular to the organismal level.

God's existence is an absolute fact but not all are given this marvelous certainty that is the firm ground beneath my feet.

As for death, we have scripture which states that the life of the flesh is in the blood which makes sense to me when you understand how necessary blood is for these physical bodies to persist.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

For us to be conscious beings we require the breath of life and a body. Our living soul depends on both and in the physical right now, this body cannot persist without blood. Dont believe me? Lose a liter of blood! Just kidding... dont do that!

In the resurrection, our bodies will no longer be physical and dependent on blood but spiritual. Nevertheless, breath and some type of body is necessary for consciousness. For us to be living souls!

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Arion

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2015, 03:55:28 PM »

The more I studied biology the more I was convinced in the belief of a Higher Power, Creator--God.

I am reminded in medical school each day of this marvelous Fact.

And yet the medical industry as a whole seems to be solidly agnostic if not atheistic.  Goes to show that if God isn't working in us that even the things that seem perfectly obvious, in your face and not even needing to be 'spiritual' to understand can go right over our heads.  Some of the most intelligent, learned and gifted people in the world such as Stephen Hawkings whose crippled body is relegated to a wheel chair can see no evidence of God in creation.  Astounding, isn't it?
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lauriellen

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2015, 05:28:14 PM »

All very good and valid points. Looking at and meditating on the wonders of creation always seems to renew my little faith. It is when I look at the human conditions of the world that I start to doubt.

Act 17:24  `God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
Act 17:25  neither by the hands of men is He served--needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26  He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth--having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings--
Act 17:27  to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, --though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28  for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

Paul said God was near to every one of us. In what way is He near? Should we seek the Lord only with our hearts and minds, or also with our eyes and hands to feel after Him? Is it wrong to want to feel some sort of physical connection to God? Or is that just another form of doubt?
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2015, 05:34:31 PM »

The more I studied biology the more I was convinced in the belief of a Higher Power, Creator--God.

I am reminded in medical school each day of this marvelous Fact.

And yet the medical industry as a whole seems to be solidly agnostic if not atheistic.  Goes to show that if God isn't working in us that even the things that seem perfectly obvious, in your face and not even needing to be 'spiritual' to understand can go right over our heads.  Some of the most intelligent, learned and gifted people in the world such as Stephen Hawkings whose crippled body is relegated to a wheel chair can see no evidence of God in creation.  Astounding, isn't it?

It absolutely blows my mind but its part of that strong delusion. You are absolutely right that unless God is working in you then you are completely and totally blind.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2015, 05:52:05 PM »

Lauri,

If you want undeniable proof of intelligent design, study the immune system, it WILL blow you away.

Nature declares God's majesty!
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2015, 06:03:03 PM »

All very good and valid points. Looking at and meditating on the wonders of creation always seems to renew my little faith. It is when I look at the human conditions of the world that I start to doubt.

Act 17:24  `God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
Act 17:25  neither by the hands of men is He served--needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26  He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth--having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings--
Act 17:27  to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, --though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
Act 17:28  for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

Paul said God was near to every one of us. In what way is He near? Should we seek the Lord only with our hearts and minds, or also with our eyes and hands to feel after Him? Is it wrong to want to feel some sort of physical connection to God? Or is that just another form of doubt?

I don't think its wrong Lauri. We all want to see 'God.' Moses asked to see God in His glory. The apostle asked Jesus, "show us the Father." Thomas said He wouldn't believe unless He could FEEL the holes in Jesus' hands. Paul was on a rampage until he saw God and then was blinded three days before becoming Christendom's greatest champion for the gospel.

Jesus said the pure of heart will SEE God, the same word see is used for when all the tribes of the earth see Jesus in revelation and mourne. This is a literal word for observing with your eyes! John in revelation says we will see God's Face. The angels in heaven are constantly beholding the face of the Father, John said that when He shall appear we shall be like Him for we shall SEE him as He is!

Sure it could all be spiritual speak but why do we assume that? Like I said in another thread, God being invisible spirit means nothing more than UNSEEN and speaks to nothing of the future as far as observing spirit, only that it is currently unseen by us.

I think even the elect are in for a pleasant surprise when God finally brings His very tabernacle to be with men.

Jesus said seek and knock. Come after Him with your WHOLE heart, He wont dissapoint you!

Just remember though that for all that we dont get in this life that the apostles and prophets of old witnessed, we do have that deceleration by Jesus--"Blessed are those who believe and as of yet have NOT SEEN!"

Just my thoughts.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Doubt
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2015, 06:05:10 PM »


Act 17:28  for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.

Paul said God was near to every one of us. In what way is He near? Should we seek the Lord only with our hearts and minds, or also with our eyes and hands to feel after Him? Is it wrong to want to feel some sort of physical connection to God? Or is that just another form of doubt?

Can't be nearer than to live, move, and BE in Him.  Seems like women who have carried and given birth should understand this better than us guys.  We're that close.  All we really have to do is un-close our eyes.  And when He is in you too, that's pretty near.  Do unto others as we would have them do unto us.  Whatsoever you do to/for the least of these, you have done to/for Me, He said.

I'll admit though that this is such a thought it is hard to keep in my head all the time.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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