> General Discussions

Question about anti christs

<< < (4/5) > >>

Extol:
Howdy Mark,

It's interesting that you bring up the toolbox analogy, because that's what Ray's Foundational Truths study is about. To quote Ray:

I want to show that you don’t have to have that many foundational Truths, if you know how to use the couple that you have.

It’s like if you have just a select number of tools, a hammer, a saw, a screw driver… say you could have 7 tools and you could build a whole house with those tools. You could have only 7 tools and you could come up with 7. Although the average house is built with maybe 100 or more tools at least. Every trade has a bucket full of 30-40-50 tools. But you would need an adjustable wrench, something to cut with maybe like a saw or knife, a hammer, a screw driver… but you could probably come up with 7 tools to build a house.

Here are the tools:

1) God does not lie (Titus 1:2)
2) Thy Word is Truth (John 17:17)
3) The Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35)
4) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim. 3:16)
5) The Father sent the son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14)
6) God will have all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4)
7) God is the savior of all men (1 Tim. 4:10)
8 ) God is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet. 3:9)
9) My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isa. 46:10)
10) God is love (1 John 4:8 )
11) Love never fails (1 Cor. 13:8 )

There is a lot more, of course, but that's all you need, Mark. Those are all the tools you need to build your house of universal salvation. You say there is "much that implies, or can easily be made to imply that salvation is selective, and these things also need to be addressed." Why does it matter if somebody thinks a verse implies something, when these verses here state as fact that God's word is true, God will save all, God will do all His pleasure, and love never fails? If somebody thinks other verses imply something contrary to these 11 verses, they obviously don't believe the Scriptures, so don't waste your time arguing with them. I've shown you 11 tools for universal salvation. Other people will deny universal salvation by twisting other Scriptures. They must twist them, because we both know there aren't any Scriptures that contradict these 11. So we have these 11 tools; here are 11 tools they do NOT have:

1) God does lie.
2) Thy word is not truth.
3) The Scripture can be broken
4) Not all Scripture is given by inspiration of God.
5) The Father did not send the son to be the Savior of the world.
6) God will not have all men be saved.
7) God is not the savior of all men.
8 ) God is willing that some perish.
9) My counsel shall not stand, and I will not do all my pleasure.
10) God is not love.
11) Love sometimes fails.

You have more than enough here. You don't need anything else. Who cares about all their maybes, what-ifs, what-abouts, and implications? They do not have anything that is Scripture that can contradict the 11 tools. And if they think they have something to contradict these 11 marvelous verses, then why bother? I'm not going to debate with somebody who thinks the Scriptures contradict each other and are not true.

I would like to caution you again about trying to debate these things with others. Are you here only so you can get the goods you need to win arguments, and show people where they are in error? You seem to have good intentions--unlike many who have come here so they can go spit in their pastors' faces--but it's not our job to go out and show all the Christians where they're wrong. You say you want to "arm [yourself] with reasoned argument"...if that's the only reason you're here, you're probably going to be disappointed. You will get a lot more out of this website if you're here to discover the truth and learn about applying these truths to your own life.

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: Horan on September 15, 2015, 09:44:35 AM ---Hello Again,

Might it be that Rome is not directly implicated as the beast in Revelation because of the time when it was written? There had already been some Roman persecution of Christians under Nero, who ruled the empire between 54 and 68 AD. What a politically incorrect document Revelation would have been, for hundreds and hundreds of years, if the beast's identity weren't veiled in symbolism. I suspect Jesus knows what He's doing. Well, context and relationship, there is so much of these supporting this understanding. Are you familiar with the four beasts of Daniel, as well as the four corresponding divisions of the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream? There's so much that pertains to this, and I encourage you to explore it. If anybody would like a link to some good materials, email me and I'll be happy to provide. But in the spirit of not arguing dissenting viewpoints on this forum, to which rule I've agreed, I'll leave the pursuit or otherwise of followup regarding this matter to your own discretion.

Extol, I'm not an Adventist, nor do I have any Adventist friends. But Adventists have been making Revelation and Biblical prophecy their stock-in-trade for about 170 years and, though I don't agree with everything they propose, I've nonetheless suggested that they're quite good at the study of prophetic scripture, and well worth some attention. But your mileage may vary, and I'll leave it at that.

I appreciate the verses which indicate that Christ fully intends to save all from death in sin, but it's not quite enough, as there is also so much that implies, or can easily be made to imply that salvation is selective, and these things also need to be addressed. I don't mean that you've somehow fallen short of adequate demonstration, but it's important that I arm myself with reasoned argument supported by scripture to deal with all aspects of the issue. It doesn't seem at all far-fetched to me that error in accurately understanding the ultimate fate of all of humanity has been allowed by God these past 2000 years and that now, as we approach the end, it's appropriate to correct it. And I hope Mr. Smith will provide me with the tools to do this, if not the whole toolbox, at least a good start, because I do so want to believe and teach that all of God's prodigal children will be guided home.

These direct statements you and Mr. Smith have provided which point simply to all of humanity being ultimately protected are quite good, as is the understanding that the word, judgment, can also be understood as 'to make things right'. I suspect the latter, word-meaning insight will be helpful in "debunking" those many statements in scripture which suggest that salvation is selective.

In Christ,
Mark

--- End quote ---

Hello!

The reason Rome is not directly mentioned as the beast in revelation is because it is not the beast. When you establish doctrine in scripture, you need to compare spiritual with spiritual because no verse is ever becoming its own interpretation. Comparing spiritual with spiritual requires AT LEAST two witnesses!

2 Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.

1 Corinthians 2:12-15 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Everything you need to understand scripture is itself contained within the scriptures but without the spirit of God it will be in vain. You will never find in scripture two witnesses that testify to the idea that the beast of scripture is anything else but mankind itself. Notice I said "in scripture" because you can find plenty of that nonsense outside of it.

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

The two witnesses have power:

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

The scriptures are the witnesses because they are who testify of God and in their multitude their is safety!

Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Proverbs 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Every word and doctrine we believe is testified to by the cloud of witnesses, the multitude of counselors, the two anointed ones who stand before the Lord of all the earth. It must be or it is not truth!

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Zechariah 4:11-14
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Jesus' words are spirit and to understand spirit you need to compare spiritual with spiritual. And to compare something with something else you need those two witnesses!

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Lastly, what you establish as doctrine cannot contradict the other truths of scripture (established in the mouth of two or three witnesses) because the Sum of God's Word is truth.

Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

Revelation is the revelation OF Jesus and it is His Words [which are spirit] that are recorded for our benefit by John.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

To understand the Words of Jesus which are spiritual (John 6:63) you have to compare spiritual with spiritual (1 Cor 2:12-15).

So here again are the two witnesses of God which stand before the Lord of all the earth and who are given power as pertaining to the matter of the beast of revelation:

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has a mind calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of mankind, and its number is six hundred sixty-six."

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

You will never understand revelation or the book of daniel so long as you are looking for the beast somewhere out there. The revelation of Jesus Christ is the revelation of Him who IS, WAS, and WILL BE.  Everyone that has ever lived (minus God himself) is the beast of revelation.

In Christ,
Alex

John from Kentucky:
Alex and Extol,

You have both answered well from the Scriptures.

It gives me a good feeling inside to know that young men have correct Scriptural understanding by God's Spirit.

Do not be upset because I called you young.  I'm over the hill and hoping not to be buried under it.   :D

It's pleasing to read your words.

John

horan:
It appears to me that you folks, or some of you, are very much willing to assume that you understand my experience and motives, interestingly without having made any inquiry of me regarding them. It appears that because I've used the word, argument, that you assume I want to argue, whereas I understand that word as pertaining to the sphere of discussion. I have looked into some of the points you raise, today reading about the Greek word 'anthropou', and though there's easily another way of looking at this word as referring to man non specifically, without construing it to mean all of mankind, I'll let the matter drop, because I can sense no openness of mind here. I'm looking into each of the things you've raised, but I detect no willingness to consider anything that I've presented and, after all, I have agreed not to argue. So please do remove me from your forum membership, while I continue to acquire what I perceive to be the necessary support in scripture for universal salvation. Still, in closing, thank you Extol for a nice list of direct statements in this regard. I think this is a very important issue, and I want to be able to defend this position well, across all of scripture, including that which is easily construed as suggesting a selective salvation. What's adequate for you as sufficient is not necessarily adequate for others.

In Christ,
Mark

Jeff:

--- Quote from: Horan on September 14, 2015, 02:15:04 PM ---...though I suspect that making the beast of Revelation synonymous with mankind simply won't work because of the many references to it in various contexts and relations to other parts of the Revelation narrative...

--- End quote ---

Prepare to be amazed Horan! :)

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page