christian prayer

[DEJI]

Every once in a while, I find myself in a situation where I am supposed to pray with "christians". It usually happens while am at a church to attend a friend/colleague's wedding(I have since stopped attending church weddings because of this) or while I am visiting a "christian" family and the head of the family(usually a friend of mine, uncle etc) prays for the household(morning devotion). On rare occasions, I am asked to pray. When they are the ones doing the praying, I can hardly say Amen to their prayers because the things they pray for usually at variance with what I know(they might pray for instance that God gives me all my heart desires- I don't think God is obliged to give me all my heart desires.Not all my heart desires are good for me anyway, or they may utter some blasphemy such as mentioning the trinity).On the flip side, when I am asked to pray, I usually can't really pray my heart's content because they would consider it distasteful(if I thank God for my trials for instance-they would think I am stupid or lack faith) or they simply wouldn't comprehend if they I said something like "Please God give me this or that but be it according to your will"(they believe if you have enough faith and harangue God enough, he will give you whatever it is that your greedy heart desires). I know very well that they are very unlikely to comprehend the truths I have learnt here at BT so I don't usually share my beliefs unless someone asks me a question such as "what church do I attend" etc to so most of them are still unaware of my beliefs. If I excused myself when the head of a family that I am visiting(who may be an uncle and as old as my dad) wants to pray, it will be considered rude, some may even insinuate that I have a demon and can't stand the prayers, if I decline to pray for such a group when asked to, it's likely to draw flak too. What do you think should be the best action in such situations   

[John from Kentucky]

None of us can tell you what to do in your particular circumstance.  The Holy Spirit will guide you if God wills.

I will tell you what I do.  I follow Jesus.  Thus, I do what He says.  Jesus told us to pray in private.  Therefore, I do not participate in any public prayers, of any kind, no matter what the situation is.

In my family, Thanksgiving Day is our big yearly holiday and get together.  Our tradition is everyone gets in a big circle, hold hands, and the senior male family member (supposed to be me after my father's death) gives the prayer.

I of course do not participate, bow my head, hold hands, or in any way assent to the proceedings.  They think I'm weird.  I do not care.  They all know me well enough to know I do not change when I've decided on a path.  They have asked me why I don't pray with them.  I told them I worship Jesus, and He told me not to pray in public.  I also tell them that the good thing is I don't have to hold hands with one of my brother-in-laws.  Yuck!   

At public ceremonies, I also do not bow my head or participate in any prayers.  Some people around me give me odd looks.

I don't want to offend people or bring attention to myself.  But the bottom line is I will not do what Jesus says to not do.

And, when it comes down to it, I really don't care what others think of me.  With the Power of God's Spirit, I can stand alone.

[DEJI]

thanks John. what do you have against your brother-in-laws 

[Dave in Tenn]

Deji, the last time I was asked to lead the 'prayer', it was at christmas-time several years back.  I thanked God for sending His Son to be the Savior of the world.  Seemed a fitting 'thanksgiving'.  I didn't say a long prayer, and I didn't 'preach' while I was supposed to be praying.  Other than thanks for the food and for the fellowship, that's all I said.

They haven't asked me to pray again since then.  Problem solved?  I don't know.  For me, maybe.

[Kat]

Hi DEJI, I'm inclined to think like Dave, because sometimes we need to be in situations that are not so comfortable to our spirit, funeral or wedding, especially when topics arise that are contrary to what we believe. But there are times my relationships with family or friends is important enough that I will go to some of these things, and just do the best I can and try not to antagonize anybody.

We know they are blind to these truths and deceived by the church, so we should expect what they might pray and as you said, wouldn't say amen/approve of some of these things they say. But if you are asked to pray, I think, there is enough that you could find to say that they would not see any problem with. You could just give a pray of thankfulness for the many things that you have in common with those you are with, they should find no problem with that. Anyway there are plenty of other times for you to pray more specifically about what you feel as better represents your spiritual needs.

I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes it's just better to compromise to a degree to keep the peace with those that are not like minded. Not saying you should compromise your beliefs for them, but maybe just be more circumspect/prudent of what you say in front of them.

Well just a few of my thoughts.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hello Deji,


I don't see why we who know and understand the truth should run or hide from those whom God has not blessed as of yet the way we have been.

When Christ went into the synagogue to teach the people, did the people know and have the truth ? Still Jesus went and taught the people.

Also, Christ taught His disciples how to pray, I think this praying in your closet is more about not being like the pharisees who like to pray in public only to been seen of people so that they would be as seen as honorable, which they were not.

When asked to pray, pray according to your understanding of God in spirit and in truth knowing your not looking for the admiration of men but of God, remember when it comes to God leave the political correctness behind.

One should reason it this way, I know Gods truth and you don't so I refuse to pray with you or you don't know Gods truth and I will pray with you because I care about you.

If Jesus said love your enemy how can you not pray with your friends or relatives? 

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Deji,

I find myself in a similar situation as the medical school I attend is affiliated, loosely, to the main campus which was established by the late reverend Jerry Fallwel. I personally had no clue of who he was until ours truly, JFK, informed me of his affiliation with the school.

Every wednesday, they have an hour break from 10am-11am for "convocation." This is where they put their hands in the air and sing praises to Jesus, tragically, a God they don't even know seeing as they believe in traditional eternal damnation of the lost. I have decided to "come out of her my people" and not partake of the babylonian richual. I leave class, usually go to the cafeteria and study for that hour. I take it as extra study time, sometimes I take a break, parouse bibletruths, read scripture perhaps, etc.. but I won't be apart of it.

Many of the professors also like to make an outward show of their piety by praying every morning before they begin their lectures. Sometimes we will have three seperate prayers from three seperate professors for three seperate lectures. For a week or so I joined in bowing my head. I would even add an amen. I was trying to do the "right thing." However, I came to the realization that in doing all these things, I was entangling myself back up with babylon and her decietful ways. As it stands now, for example today, I didn't bow my head. I didn't say amen. They also pray for things that I too do not agree with. They pray for the world and I think they do it more as a self righteous thing then as a geniune concern for the world. After all, if they were concerned for the world, they would probably be absolutely distraut at the prospect of that same world suffering eternal torture at the hands of their god. I don't pray for the world because I know God is going to do as He has planned and its not my job to tell Him how to run things but ofcourse they believe that God needs help running things and that as ray put it, 'He's running a damage control center from heaven.'

Prayer in that format is very strange to me because I pray all the time. I try actively, though at times of intent focus I fail, to be in constant prayer with God all the time. I speak to Him constantly so it is so wierd for me to just pause everything and  outwardly pray as if I wasn't just been speaking with Him a few seconds ago.

So I have grown beyond these outward shows of religiousity and piety and try and live quietly and peacebly while focusing on judging myself now in the fires of gehanna and enduring the trials that the Lord has set before me.

I get along with many of my classmates as well but I learned recently that their lack of understanding provents them from going any further in the faith. By the grace of God one of my classmates came to realize after our discussion of scripture that the lake of fire was not permanent but would eventually come to an end only to come to the conclusion that God was going to therefor annihilate His creation. I was absolutely heart broken and in disbalief... I saw the depth of satan and the futility of my actions. I had for a moment let go of the fact that only God can make a blind man see to indulge in this theological debate. I had let the carnal beast get the best of me. I was going to show them the real Jesus! Me! Alex! Boy was I wrong...

My own actions and efforts had the complete opposite affect that I thought they would. From this experience now I know that in babylon I must be very careful of what I speak of and chose my words very wisely. I need to remember to give an answer for the reason of my hope to those who ASK for it.

So unlike you, I HAVE to be here and EVERYDAY I must be subjected to these religious rituals and carnal practices but I try and look at it as the babylon experience I never got. I relate a lot to Daniel at this point in my life, taken captive, but according to God's will for a good purpose. It certainly is teaching me a lot.

Well I hope my experience helps you a bit.

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

Prayer in that format is very strange to me because I pray all the time. I try actively, though at times of intent focus I fail, to be in constant prayer with God all the time. I speak to Him constantly so it is so wierd for me to just pause everything and  outwardly pray as if I wasn't just been speaking with Him a few seconds ago.

That rings a bell with me too.  I certainly don't MIND bowing my head when 'grace' is said over a meal.  I think 'making a scene' can be just as much a 'religious' act as prostrating myself and howling like a dog.  And I can 'go into my (spiritual) closet' anywhere, at any time, under any circumstances...even in a crowd.  But it's like...I have to stop praying in order to pray?  It's like 'wake up, it's time to go to sleep'.   

[rick]

Some other thoughts too, although we know Gods truths how do we fair with them ? Have you ever had someone take you by surprise in an argumentative way and you find the carnal mind take right over ? What happened ? I pray to God, I learn about God but I ask, what just happen?

I'm not here to be fake or to make someone think I'm righteous, I'm just a man born with a sinful nature who is starting to see Gods truths in my life, that's it.

If you ask me if I'm a good man I will tell you only God is good, me I',m a sinner hoping to sin less as time goes on but I know it all has to do with God.

I'm not using this as a copout but I don't have free will, sometimes God uses me as a club in His hand and other times He uses someone else as a club in His hand to club me into submission, its how I see it.

Some days I want to live so much and other days I wish I could be dead ,but even that I know the truth, its not like being dead you get a break because the only thing we will ever know is life no matter how long we are dead, I think you know what I mean.

Anyways, just some other thoughts.

[John from Kentucky]

Below is a little something Ray said on the first day of the 2009 Mobile Conference about praying at meals.

I had been thinking about the subject for a while.  I didn't think all the praying people were doing at mealtime and in public was from the Scriptures.

Ray's comments put me over the top.  I have never said a public prayer since.

I am not going to change unless I see Jesus do public prayers.  Especially since Jesus said do not pray in public in the Scriptures.  I leave it to others to explain away Jesus' words.  As for me, when He Who has eyes like flames of fire, and Whose face is like the Sun, Who walks among the golden candlesticks----when He says something---I listen.



SAYING GRACE
So a year or two ago I was thinking about this 'saying grace.' I had a friend and we went to a restaurant and everybody would bow their heads, people would be getting their food and we would be praying and I thought that was a little awkward. I'm not embarrassed to pray or to talk about God, but I just thought that was a little awkward, you know. So I got to thinking about where did that come from? Does anybody have any ideas why we say 'grace'? When I say 'grace' I don't mean say the word grace. Grace means gratuitous or gift.

[Comment from attendee: Was it because Christ was blessing the bread?] Okay, that sounds logical. Anyone else?

[Comment from attendee: Was it when He feed the multitude?] Alright. Anyone else?

[Comment: Paul gave grace before he broke bread, in Acts, on his last trip.] Okay, can anybody find that? I want to know where they sat down for a meal and before they ate the meal they ask God's blessing and thanks on the meal. This is not a big deal, in fact I do it, it's a custom and there is really nothing wrong with it. I just don't believe it's Scriptural. Some say I Timothy 4.

1TiM 4:3  Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

That has nothing to do with saying grace. Some authorities say it came from Deuteronomy 12.

Deu 12:7  And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that you put your hand unto, you and your households, wherein the LORD your God hath blessed you.

I don't see anybody saying grace over a meal there. Do you?

Well what about the first Biblical dinner? That's found in Genesis 18:1-8, that's the first real dinner mentioned in the Bible.

Gen 18:1-8  And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;  And he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetched a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

There's nothing about saying grace or a blessing.

What about when they were entertaining angels with a meal in Genesis 19:1-3?

Gen 19:1-3  And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

There is no thanks given.

What about the first Passover? There is no thanks given, no blessing said, not that I see in the Scriptures.

What about when they went through the field and the disciples were eating grain?

Mat 12:1  At that time on the sabbath, Jesus went through the grain fields. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.

Did they say a blessing over the grain/food first? It doesn't say so.

Someone had said feeding the multitudes. Now that is a little different. That is not like sitting down for a meal here, because they haven't even got enough food for a meal. Now He ask God's blessing because He's got a couple loaves of bread and two fishes and He needed God to multiply them.

Mat 14:16  But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat.
v. 17  And they say unto Him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.
v. 18  He said, Bring them hither to Me.
v. 19  And He commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, He blessed, and broke, and gave the loaves to His disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
v. 20  And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.

That's a special pray. God, take these little morsels of food and make a whole lot out of it. But that's not the traditional blessing of a meal. It's a miracle of turning a little food into a lot of food.

It says "looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke it" that's true. But this was in the context of multiplying the fish and so on and of course they took up twelve baskets that were left over when they were done eating.

The Pharisees had a major problem with the disciples of Jesus not washing their hands before they ate. But they didn't have a problem about them not saying a blessing or a pray.

Mat 15:2  Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

Well what about the last supper? There for sure, right? For sure there we have an example of blessing the food and everything before they partake of the dinner. Right? No pale face.

Mat 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body.

Did you catch that? "As they were eating," they already started dinner, they didn't ask a blessing on it.

When did He bless the wine? It was blessed "after supper," after the meal.

Luke 22:20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you.

Even after the resurrection did Jesus bless the food?

Luke 24:40  And when He had thus spoken, He showed them His hands and His feet.
v. 41  And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, He said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
v. 42  And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of a honeycomb.
v. 43  And He took it, and did eat before them.

He said have you got anything to eat and they said yea we've got some boiled fish and they gave it to Him and He ate it. It doesn't say He blessed it or ask God's grace on it or anything.

So it's not a big deal, all I'm saying is we have these traditions that you just know in your mind, 'well that's Scriptural.' The church has been doing that for two thousand years, but I don't find it in the Bible. Sorry, but I don't find it there.

It's fine though, you can start traditions that are not used in the Bible as examples. But the point is people do think it is in the Bible. It's like the saying, 'cleanliness is next to godliness.' People think that's a proverb from the Bible, it's not in the Bible, okay.

[Dave in Tenn]

Here's a little something Ray said in the middle of that little something John posted.

I want to know where they sat down for a meal and before they ate the meal they ask God's blessing and thanks on the meal. This is not a big deal, in fact I do it, it's a custom and there is really nothing wrong with it. I just don't believe it's Scriptural.

and at the end:

So it's not a big deal, all I'm saying is we have these traditions that you just know in your mind, 'well that's Scriptural.' The church has been doing that for two thousand years, but I don't find it in the Bible. Sorry, but I don't find it there.

It's fine though, you can start traditions that are not used in the Bible as examples. But the point is people do think it is in the Bible. It's like the saying, 'cleanliness is next to godliness.' People think that's a proverb from the Bible, it's not in the Bible, okay.

I haven't listened to this bible-study in quite a while, but if it was true to form, it likely opened and/or closed with a prayer made in 'public'.

But it is as John has said elsewhere, there are people who say they read and understand the articles, but really don't.

I hope I am not "explaining away" Jesus' words by saying that they are spiritual.  Perhaps to John, the closet means 'private' as opposed to 'public'.  That would be fine with me for him.  To me, the closet means 'inward' as opposed to 'outward'.  Jesus prayed publicly AND privately.  I am assuming that if His words could be recorded in Scripture that there was SOMEBODY there to hear and remember them.  Not exactly "private" by the strictest of definitions. 

It's just that this tradition of 'saying grace' before a meal is not based on an example from scripture.  That's all.  I also feel awkward in those situations, but I'm not going to get holier-than-thou about it.     

[Joel]

The question that comes to my mind is; Is it better to make any mention of God in public, or is better to remain silent and only partake in just the carnal aspects of those types of gatherings?
The way I see it, being lead of the Spirit in all things is the best way to go, and to never say never is my way of thinking when it comes to God.
Paul said he was made all things to all men, that he might by all means save some. (1st Corinthians 9:22)

Joel

[octoberose]

I pray with people often and never find that I am compromising my faith  in any way. On the contrary, I declare the praises of Him who made me and do it publicly.

[santgem]

Hi DEJI,
Greetings!


In your situation what matters is that;
In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 1Th 5:18


but when they ask you to pray be careful that you may not cause one of them to sin or if they are praying do not do your skipping rope or dancing that they may cause them to sin. Joke!
So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall. Rom 14:13
For this reason, if food causes my brother or sister to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I may not cause one of them to sin. 1Co 8:13

either in public or private or before and after you have to thank God for the things he has given you.
When you have eaten your fill, be sure to praise the LORD your God for the good land he has given you. Deu 8:10




Don't worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. Phl 4:6

But giving thanks is a sacrifice that truly honors me.If you keep to my path, I will reveal to you the salvation of God." Psa 50:23

And whatever you do or say, do it as a representative of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through him to God the Father. Col 3:17

And give thanks for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 5:20

[DEJI]

My sincere thanks to everyone. I have always wondered about saying grace before meals too, now I know for sure that it's a tradition of man.

[Kat]

Here is an email on the subject. I think the key to this is in the last comment that Ray made... so I think prayer should not be just as a habit for a public display, it should always be directed to our God (as Ray said "not to those listening") and seeking to praise Him.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2025.0.html ---------

In the past year I have been giving thought to the whole idea of "Public Prayers." Several years ago I was accused by someone who said to me:  "Do you not believe in corporate prayer, Ray?"

I usually open Bible Studies and Conferences with prayer, but not always. I always dismiss our Conferences with prayer, however.  I pray for hours, days, weeks before a Bible Conference, so why is it necessary that I spend a couple of minutes asking God once more for inspiration just prior to my lectures, aloud, and in public?  Well, quite frankly, it is an expected ritual; a tradition of men.  I don't believe that most pay any special attention to what is said anyway, as they are eager to hear the "lecture" or "study" about to begin.

Our last Mobile Conference was held in a Public Library meeting room. They approved our use of the room as long as it was not for a "religious worship service."  I assured them it was to be a series of Lectures on the Old and New Testament Scriptures.  For this reason I did not open with a public prayer, as the library personnel were in the area.  I did however, pray a couple of other times at the Conference and closed with prayer. They could hardly kick us out after we were finished.  As it turned out the Library Security man present on our Sunday meeting was most cordial.

Christians do the same thing with saying grace in public restaurants.  They will often bow their heads and hold hands in a circle, all the while people are passing by or sitting next to them while they pray over the food before they eat it.  I would speculate that there are few Believers who are more appreciative of food that I am, or thank God more often for it than I do.  I do not take food for granted. I know to a small extent the suffering of millions of people who have starved or gone hungry most of their lives.  I have gone days without food and water and I know the pain of hunger on just a relatively mild level.  I do not feel the need for a ritualistic saying of "grace' in public buildings and restaurants.  God knows my heart and God hears my silent prayers just as loud and clearly as He does my audible prayers.

It was "as they WERE EATING [not before]" that Jesus took bread and blessed it—the bread (Matt. 26:26) and "gave thanks" (Luke 22:19).  I just don't see where Jesus prayed "corporate" prayers before corporate events. Look at one of the most important sections of Scripture in the entire Bible—the Sermon on the Mount.  What do we read?  "And seeing the multitudes, He went up into a mountain: and when He was set, His disciples came unto Him: And He opened His mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit...." Etc., etc.

Were was the "corporate" prayer before this most important teaching of His ministry?

I do not shrink from praying for people or with people or in front of people, but neither do I feel obligated to pray just because of custom.

Here is how Jesus taught us to pray:  "But YOU,  when YOU pray, enter into your closet [inner room], and when you have SHUT YOUR DOOR, pray to your Father which is in secret...." (Matt. 6:6).  How did our Lord pray:

"And He withdrew Himself into the WILDERNESS and prayed" (Luke 5:16).

"And it came to pass in those days, that He went out into A MOUNTAIN to pray...." (Luke 6:12).

"And it came to pass, as He was ALONE praying...." (Luke 9:18).

"Then comes Jesus with them unto a placed called Gethsemane, and said unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray YONDER" (Matt. 26:36).

"And in the morning rising up a great while before day, He wnet out, and departed into a SOLITARY PLACE and there prayed" (Mark 1:35).

But here's an example of where Jesus did pray aloud in front of a group. It was the occasion of raising Lazarus from the dead. After removing the stone from the tomb, Jesus lifted up His eyes and said:  "Father I thank You that You have heard Me.  And I know that You hear Me always..."  Jesus knew that His silent prayer to His Father had already been heard before He prayed aloud. Then why did He pray aloud?  Let's read it: "....but because of THE PEOPLE WHICH STAND BY I said it, that THEY may believe that You have sent Me" (John 11:40-41).  Proof that Jesus did NOT normally pray aloud in public.  Jesus Himself acknowledged that there was a special reason why He praid aloud on this one particular occasion.

Nonetheless, when I do pray in public, I pray to GOD and not to those listening. And I never feel RUSHED to get it over with.

God be with you,

Ray

[dave]

Deji, the last time I was asked to lead the 'prayer', it was at christmas-time several years back.  I thanked God for sending His Son to be the Savior of the world.  Seemed a fitting 'thanksgiving'.  I didn't say a long prayer, and I didn't 'preach' while I was supposed to be praying.  Other than thanks for the food and for the fellowship, that's all I said.

They haven't asked me to pray again since then.  Problem solved?  I don't know.  For me, maybe.

"Seemed a fitting 'thanksgiving'.  I didn't say a long prayer, and I didn't 'preach' while I was supposed to be praying."
I really appreciated that. Thanks

[DEJI]

thanks for bringing that E-mail to my attention Kat, I pretty much pray several times a day like Ray said. sometimes while driving or when I just feel inspired to pray. it's just the specific case of being co-opted into praying by "Christians" that got me worried. like someone said on this forum recently, I don't want to unnecessarily "create " persecution for myself by spurning them and I don't want to be a part of their ignorance either.

[Rhys 🕊]

You can pray together with others.



Act 1:13  And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.
Act 1:14  All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.


Act 12:12  When he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose other name was Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.

The public prayers done in churches these days never felt right to me and never found any comfort in them. Some even shout out there prayers like God is deaf. As I move on in the truth as Ray discussed I find I only want to pray alone or that alone place if others are around. Public prayer to me seems like freewill - if we get a good number together and pray up a storm we can change God's mind on things. The reasoning behind these prayer meetings is false.

Rhys

[DEJI]

Thanks Rhys.