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Scriptures or not scripture is the question?
rick:
I知 having an issue with these scriptures, Has Ray done anything in writing concerning these scriptures ?
What I知 wondering is if these scriptures are actually in the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts.
I cannot help to think these scriptures sound more secular than God inspired to me.
I know Ray already pointed out some fallacies in the King James version although more about the meaning of hell verses Hades.
I知 assuming these fallacies came about in the middle ages or dark ages and what I知 wondering is if perhaps a particular king made sure these scriptures became part of the word of God thus adding to the word of God.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
I understand God is absolutely the higher power but where is says ( the powers that be ) are ordained of God. My thoughts here would be is there a secular authority inserting ( the powers that be ) in this scripture ?
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
In Rom 13: 2 I discover if I resist the secular rulers I shall receive judgment, could this judgement be hells fire that was added to the word of God to keep we the peasants in line ?
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.
Is Heb 13:17 trying to get me to believe that our politicians are watching over my soul ? And if I resist its unprofitable to me? Gods will is to save all so I guess this scripture must be talking about prison or being executed for not obeying the secular rulers.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13 : 3 is a pure secular statement to me as I read it.
So, I知 wondering if these scriptures are being added to the word of God ?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Rick on September 05, 2015, 06:16:59 PM ---I知 having an issue with these scriptures, Has Ray done anything in writing concerning these scriptures ?
What I知 wondering is if these scriptures are actually in the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts.
I cannot help to think these scriptures sound more secular than God inspired to me.
I know Ray already pointed out some fallacies in the King James version although more about the meaning of hell verses Hades.
I知 assuming these fallacies came about in the middle ages or dark ages and what I知 wondering is if perhaps a particular king made sure these scriptures became part of the word of God thus adding to the word of God.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
I understand God is absolutely the higher power but where is says ( the powers that be ) are ordained of God. My thoughts here would be is there a secular authority inserting ( the powers that be ) in this scripture ?
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
In Rom 13: 2 I discover if I resist the secular rulers I shall receive judgment, could this judgement be hells fire that was added to the word of God to keep we the peasants in line ?
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.
Is Heb 13:17 trying to get me to believe that our politicians are watching over my soul ? And if I resist its unprofitable to me? Gods will is to save all so I guess this scripture must be talking about prison or being executed for not obeying the secular rulers.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13 : 3 is a pure secular statement to me as I read it.
So, I知 wondering if these scriptures are being added to the word of God ?
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
The simple answre is no. Jesus taught and acted according to this same spirit and wisdom.
Mark 12:14-17
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
Lastly consider Jesus own actions when He was delivered up and tried.
John 19:8-11
8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Consider the Old testatement as well:
Numbers 16:1-3, 19-33
1 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?
19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the congregation.
20 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.
25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him.
26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of their's, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.
27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.
28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.
30 But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord.
31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
You might want to read the whole account above, I just took the beginning and conclusion of the matter.
Here is another account which has to do directly with the secular leadership.
Daniel 4:19-25
19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.
23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
God bless,
Alex
rick:
Hi Alex,
Thank you for your response, after reading the scriptures you put forth I知 not convinced as of yet, I believe my answer will not be answered in one topic or one post.
However you did bring to my attention which I had not understood before is in the last paragraph in Daniel 4 :25 where it says ( till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. )
How does God rule in the kingdom of man ? So we know Christ has not returned and set up His kingdom, we know we are still in this age and not the next age where Christ will reign as King.
So how does God rule in the kingdom of man ? I cannot help to think of Rays teachings on the myth of free will, so to me Rays teaching appear to explain how God does rule in the kingdom of man or how God affects the affairs of man, man does not have free will, how else could God rule in the kingdom of man.
Can you recall if Ray covered Daniel 4 :25 in his writings ? I知 seeing that statement as backing up what Ray had taught us concerning free will or the lack of it I should say.
Thanks Alex and God bless. :)
lilitalienboi16:
Hi Rick,
I fail to see how the above examples don't convince you that the scriptures in question are not spurious. They are almost perfect matches.
Here are more old testatment examples:
Jeremiah 27:1-11
1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah came this word unto Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Thus saith the Lord to me; Make thee bonds and yokes, and put them upon thy neck,
3 And send them to the king of Edom, and to the king of Moab, and to the king of the Ammonites, and to the king of Tyrus, and to the king of Zidon, by the hand of the messengers which come to Jerusalem unto Zedekiah king of Judah;
4 And command them to say unto their masters, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Thus shall ye say unto your masters;
5 I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.
6 And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.
7 And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him.
8 And it shall come to pass, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve the same Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and that will not put their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation will I punish, saith the Lord, with the sword, and with the famine, and with the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.
9 Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:
10 For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.
11 But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those will I let remain still in their own land, saith the Lord; and they shall till it, and dwell therein.
Daniel 5:18
"Your Majesty, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor.
God bless,
Alex
rick:
Hi Alex,
There are some things I would like to say to help me with my understanding however the conversation would turn political which as you know is not going to happen on this forum.
I feel my hands are tied behind my back on this forum with this topic so I found another forum where I can explore the things of God and my understanding of scripture without condemnation.
Thanks anyways Alex.
God bless.
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