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How many people have ever lived on earth?

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lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: Neo on September 25, 2015, 01:40:06 AM ---Friend Bob,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. But I really have no dog in this hunt, to be honest.  I don't  and can't have abortions; my wife hasn't and won't, and I haven't (nor want) any discriminating power over the subject anyway.  My opinions don't matter to anyone but me.

HOWEVER, you said:


--- Quote ---selfishly and intentionally aborting a potential human life hurts the person who decides to do it, because they should know that the life would continue for a normal life span if not killed or at least it can do so and therefore is to them a sin.
--- End quote ---

...Causing me to once again interject my unwanted opinion (I can't help it):

Unfortunately, the majority of women who have abortions do not know that life "would continue" if they chose not to abort.  In fact, most are quite un-regretful...believing, like Kat, that their deliberate act of terminating their embryo only confirms God's ultimate plan of never having 'known" the child in the first place.  It was always synthetic...a test of evil...a hologram prepared  to 'humble them'. It was never actually a "human life" after all.

I noticed no one answered my earlier questions.  That's OK, but I would more appreciate the honesty of saying, "I just don't know". Instead of implying that you DO, but that others (me) aren't worthy of sharing that knowledge.

Anyhow, Kat's scriptural citation to her theory from Job is rather weak and interpretive in my opinion.  Just not very convincing. And worse, brings up even more unanswerable questions, like:

If abortion actually terminates a life FOREVER, then how is it not worse than murder?  For killing a "living soul" is only a temporary sentence... Eventually, all become children of God.  Those killed in the womb by actual children of God, however, are permanently wiped.  :o

Just seems very oily to me. And knowing what I know about the 'death trade' (not just in embryonic tissue, mind you, but of the dead 'NOT buried by the dead'--rather chopped and shopped), I can't see any light in this...Only darkness.

So you see the source of my consternation when people here imply that the killing of the unborn is not sin...nor is it anything at all. It's just a humbling experience..like stubbing your toe on the corner of the couch after having a glass of wine too many. (Don't ask me how I know how bad that hurts).

--- End quote ---

1 Timothy 6:20-21 O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called; which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

1 Titus 3:8-11 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

You were given a multitude of counselors which all testify to the same truth regarding this matter. All scripture is given by the inspiration of God including Job.

You only affirm your despising of God's word when you turn such a marvelous truth into a thing to be mocked and rediculed;  "[/b]In fact, most are quite un-regretful...believing, like Kat, that their deliberate act of terminating their embryo only confirms God's ultimate plan of never having 'known" the child in the first place.  It was always synthetic...a test of evil...a hologram prepared  to 'humble them'. It was never actually a "human life" after all. [/b]"

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

God is sovereign and in control. These witnesses of scripture which testify to the truth are not Kat's words but God's. Woe indeed!

judy:
The taking of a life of a potential child of God is not the way to solve a problem. We have come from children are blessings to they are just more baggage. The root is fear and selfishness. I know because it's what I experienced when an unexpected pregnancy took place. I fought it but it took 5 months to accept it. Once I did, which I believe God wanted to bend me more to His will, I lost the baby. Then the guilt came. It was not a good time.

Colin:
Dear all

I have carefully read through the entire thread from its beginning and note how it veered away from its original subject.  No matter, it brought to light a topic which members have shown great interest in and where we all may learn as we seek more insight. 
 Abortion is a very emotional topic and cannot be dealt with at “arm’s length” like some other topics.  My wife and I were unable to have children and experienced only miscarriages, so I can feel for those who have had similar traumas. 
Questions about lost foetuses (through “natural” abortion) have also crossed my mind, wondering whether they will ever be included in a future resurrection. (I think that is only a “natural” reaction).  They were deemed (by us as possible parents) during the very early period of pregnancy as potential family members, in much the same way as we read concerning ourselves; we are said to be “begotten, but not yet actually born”.  Ray clarified for us, the one Greek word carries both meanings, and contrary to common teaching we are not “born again” now - that event is yet future, at our resurrection. 

 We could be likened to the foetal stage and it is true we can indeed “abort” and not be in the first resurrection.  Ray dealt with that in his March 2008 Bible Study entitled “Can we lose God’s Spirit and Aeonian Life”?   I am only saying, that in thinking of the abortion topic, we could, using a parable, be regarded as an under-developed spiritual foetus…..I am not suggesting any more than that with regard to literal foetuses.

 Continuing the analogy, if perchance we DO abort or are not amongst the chosen and miss the first resurrection, do we have an opportunity to be in a later one?  Yes, we do and we would go on to experience the lake of fire to refine and further develop what is lacking – with, might I suggest, the goal of “being given the breath of spiritual life”.     Is there a parallel there with aborted foetuses - I cannot tell.

When God granted fertility to several barren women, so that they could conceive, He intended that the pregnancies reach full-term.   No doubt, being in charge, He prevented any miscarriages. 

Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

The dead, in the case of Sarai, was that her womb was considered “dead”.   

In the case of my wife and myself, God knew in advance that she would become pregnant and that she would subsequently lose the foetus naturally…..just as He knows everything else before it occurs.  We accepted the fact that it happened according to His plans.  Whether or not any aborted foetuses will exist again is something we simply do not know.   It ought not to be a point of contention.   Speculation, maybe.
I am fully persuaded of the scriptures (which have been mentioned) which show that God gives the breath of life in order that a “living soul” will result.

A number of girls/women opt for abortion deliberately and for a number of reasons.  There have been instances where a pregnancy that occurred far too early in life has been terminated for the sake of, say, mental health, with a subsequent later pregnancy being successful with a joyful outcome.   Are we to attempt to remove someone else’s mote in the eye under those circumstances? 

As for the growing accounts we hear of the trade in “foetal spare parts”, well that comes into another category, again with a variety of motives…..good and evil.   The gruesome details do not bear repeating and most people find the procedures appalling.     It is, as has been said, all part of this present evil world which needs the return of Christ to restore true values.

Another similar practice under discussion in some parliaments is that of euthanasia.   Emotions can run high, with both sides claiming to be “right”.
Those performing medical procedures of abortion and euthanasia are condemned as “murderers”.  One particular murderer we know very well was Saul - who was turned around to become a key figure in God’s plan.  His motives were far more sinister than the medical folk who “kill”.   So, if he could be converted, then so will they be.
Just a few thoughts from an old man feeling for the woes of those affected by abortion problems.    Colin

Dave in Tenn:
Thanks, Colin.

lurquer:
Colin, I agree with all that you said.  I think that abortion, when done for convenience--as a form of birth control (as it almost ALWAYS is done), is therefore the intentional killing of an unborn human, and is thus sin.

I do not condemn those who have done it.  If there is any condemnation, I reserve it for those in the business of doing it--for the actors and the operators in the industry.  And God will judge them.

What I was tryting to get out of Kat was whether or not, from her study of the scriptgures, the act of abortion WAS killing, and WAS sin.  For some reason, she couldn't bring herself to answer that, and instead continued with her attack on her imaginary belief that I reject Ray's teaching on the "soul" and "when a life becomes a life", et cetera. So, to end the ignorance, let me say once again that I DO NOT DISAGREE with her or Ray on this point.

I don't know if Ray ever spoke on abortion, or the ultimate nature of an embryonic human.  I don't know if his views would line up with Kat's or not.  I don't care either.  It is, as you said, "a matter of speculation," for there is nothing concrete in the scriptures to clear up this debate (if it even is a debate). 

But there are very real ramifications to believing (and teaching) that there is really nothing wrong with abortion, and that the industry and its practitioners are being unfairly demonized. I don't and can't see how this can be a true follower of Christ's point of view. 

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