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How many people have ever lived on earth?
indianabob:
Friend Neo,
Much of interest in what you have said.
My short personal view;
Sin is sin because it hurts or does damage to someone, somehow.
Stealing from a friend hurts the person who steals.
Hating another person poisons the person who hates.
Caveat: Unless their human conscience is seared.
In similar manner, selfishly and intentionally aborting a potential human life hurts the person who decides to do it, because they should know that the life would continue for a normal life span if not killed or at least it can do so and therefore is to them a sin.
Of course being hurt by willful sin requires that the sinner be aware of the hurt and the sin.
If a person is already so warped in their character due to disease or terrible environment or a life of drugs then they may not be able to conceive of the hurt the way a normal healthy person would.
In any case the reason God forbids sin is for our personal benefit so that we may not need to suffer from our own corrupt attitude. That is why I think, grace is absolutely necessary. Penance and works don't achieve the needed result.
I hope I have added a little light to the discussion.
Indiana Bob
lurquer:
Friend Bob,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. But I really have no dog in this hunt, to be honest. I don't and can't have abortions; my wife hasn't and won't, and I haven't (nor want) any discriminating power over the subject anyway. My opinions don't matter to anyone but me.
HOWEVER, you said:
--- Quote ---selfishly and intentionally aborting a potential human life hurts the person who decides to do it, because they should know that the life would continue for a normal life span if not killed or at least it can do so and therefore is to them a sin.
--- End quote ---
...Causing me to once again interject my unwanted opinion (I can't help it):
Unfortunately, the majority of women who have abortions do not know that life "would continue" if they chose not to abort. In fact, most are quite un-regretful...believing, like Kat, that their deliberate act of terminating their embryo only confirms God's ultimate plan of never having 'known" the child in the first place. It was always synthetic...a test of evil...a hologram prepared to 'humble them'. It was never actually a "human life" after all.
I noticed no one answered my earlier questions. That's OK, but I would more appreciate the honesty of saying, "I just don't know". Instead of implying that you DO, but that others (me) aren't worthy of sharing that knowledge.
Anyhow, Kat's scriptural citation to her theory from Job is rather weak and interpretive in my opinion. Just not very convincing. And worse, brings up even more unanswerable questions, like:
If abortion actually terminates a life FOREVER, then how is it not worse than murder? For killing a "living soul" is only a temporary sentence... Eventually, all become children of God. Those killed in the womb by actual children of God, however, are permanently wiped. :o
Just seems very oily to me. And knowing what I know about the 'death trade' (not just in embryonic tissue, mind you, but of the dead 'NOT buried by the dead'--rather chopped and shopped), I can't see any light in this...Only darkness.
So you see the source of my consternation when people here imply that the killing of the unborn is not sin...nor is it anything at all. It's just a humbling experience..like stubbing your toe on the corner of the couch after having a glass of wine too many. (Don't ask me how I know how bad that hurts).
judy:
All I know is I loved my unborn children, I felt their life move in me. They were alive. I could not kill that human life. I lost two children. I still wonder what they might have been like. I was lucky to have four born alive and well. I'm not God and I don't always think like God, I am human and I don't like this subject discussed without any compassion, some are so cold towards this. Why do mothers cry when their children are born but don't breathe, because they died but had been alive. God help us.
John from Kentucky:
Neo,
Your questions were not answered because of your attitude, which is not of God.
But, again, they were answered. I stated a Scriptural thought from Paul, which states love causes no harm and thus fulfills all law.
Also, Kat's citation from the Book of Job was not weak or her opinion, but Scriptural truth that can be backed up by other Scriptures. In the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established.
You do need to do a lot more study of the Scriptures, but only if guided by the Spirit of God.
Kat:
Neo, you are so close minded on this that you are ignoring and even rejecting Scripture that is brought to your attention, yet I don't see where you have brought a single Scripture to bare on this. I do not take this subject lightly, but I do believe what the Scripture says on this.
The sovereign God is who determines who lives, it is He that actually brings a baby to be born to give this "breath of the spirit of life." Many babies are lost and the mother can do nothing to stop it and yes women make dreadful choices that stop the process, but God is responsible for all life and is the ultimate cause that determines this.
--- Quote ---If abortion actually terminates a life FOREVER, then how is it not worse than murder? For killing a "living soul" is only a temporary sentence... Eventually, all become children of God. Those killed in the womb by actual children of God, however, are permanently wiped.
--- End quote ---
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.
Your comments are a contradiction to these Scripture and what Ray taught. Can you not see that these Scripture show that the 'soul' is in the breath of life? It is with the breath that God gives the 'spirit' of life and a person is then a soul, which is life, consciousness, awareness. Ray spoke on this many times.
http://bible-truths.com/part1.htm ----------------------
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html ---
It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL. Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood? Good.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I am not nonchalance about this subject, I certainly know what's it's like to have that precious life growing inside you, there is great joy and expectation. But I also know the pain of losing a baby that dies before it is born, it is extremely difficult. I know this subject carriers a lot of emotional angst, I struggled many years trying to understand all this... but now that I have come to see and believe the Scriptural truth on it, which I do not think is "weak and interpretive," I now have peace.
John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
v. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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