> Off Topic Discussions
How many people have ever lived on earth?
John from Kentucky:
I agree with Kat. I believe that the entirety of Scriptures indicate that you must have the breathe of life in your lungs in order to be a living soul.
If you have the breathe of life, then you are a living soul.
If you do not have the breathe of life, then you are a dead soul.
However, just because an unborn child does not have the breathe of life, is not a living soul per the Scriptures, it does not follow that it is O.K. to abort a fetus.
Those under the New Covenant do not have a bunch of rules of do's and dont's.
We are guided by the Spirit of God in our thoughts and actions. We follow the law of love. Love does no harm; therefore love fulfills all law.
Does abortion cause harm? If it does, then it would be a sin under the law of God, and those who follow God will not do it.
The question of whether or not an unborn child is a living soul or not is separate from whether an abortion is lawful to a servant of God.
An unborn child is definitely human, it is living tissue, it should be treated with care and respect, but until a child is born and the breathe of life enters into it, I do not believe it is a living soul as that word is used in the Scriptures.
Does anyone have at least two clear Scriptures that say an unborn child is a living soul?
Kat:
Neo, this is another place where you are all caught up in the politics of this world. I have shown you Scripture as to why I have stated and believe as I do... what goes on in this world is worldly/ungodly/corrupt and is intended to be this way. But I will not be dragged into debating the details of this.
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
If we are being prepared for the kingdom, I believe the Holy Spirit guides each of us in our choices to do what is righteous in His eyes in all matters.
Heb 13:18 Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
v. 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
v. 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
microlink:
Kat, I agree with you about the human spirit and the breath of life. At one time in WWCG a debate raged over the topic of abortion, and whether it was wrong because it amounted to murder of a potential child of of God. The leadership proclaimed that abortion was wrong. And I continue to believe that is morally wrong.
And thanks Kat for providing the link to the tread on the abortion question. It provided some further insight, especially your post which included reference to Job chapter 10. I hope I did not subvert the thread by introducing the abortion issue since your first post was one history of population numbers and not what has evolved from my post.
And I do agree with you and based upon the scriptures you gave that the spiritual life of a human being begins at the first breath (forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth). However I see that the decision ( we know the terrible situation about harvesting fetus body parts for money -UUGH) to abort a potential human being made in the image of God is wrong. It is different than a natural abortion, which happens for whatever natural reason. It is quiet different than killing a fellow human being. I is also different IMO from shooting a rodent or a moose.
Does it not boil down to the question of human motives, selfishness and personal gain (monetary or other). The carnal mind is enmity against God. Greed motivates many to perform evil acts.
Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Awaiting the day that the carnal mind and human nature will be gone.
Joe
lurquer:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 23, 2015, 01:17:23 PM ---I agree with Kat. I believe that the entirety of Scriptures indicate that you must have the breathe of life in your lungs in order to be a living soul.
--- End quote ---
Well that’s great, John, now we can all say that we agree with Kat.
--- Quote ---However, just because an unborn child does not have the breathe of life, is not a living soul per the Scriptures, it does not follow that it is O.K. to abort a fetus.
--- End quote ---
Why not? What, specifically, is the crime of abortion?
--- Quote ---Does abortion cause harm? If it does, then it would be a sin under the law of God, and those who follow God will not do it.
--- End quote ---
Does it, or not? What do you contend? And WHO is harmed?
Kat, where did I bring any political discussion into this? I responded to your assertions about what a fetus is or isn’t. Your thread here focused on how many souls will ultimately be in the Family of God. You seemed to have that worked out pretty well in your mind and I was interested in how you treat the subject of those who died as yet unborn. YOU invoked a former thread on abortion. I found your reasoning pertinent to THIS thread. So I commented. I have no political agenda; I don’t follow politics, I don’t vote, I’m not interested in learning about man’s laws or a purported right to rule over other men. OK?
What you have done is entered into a very philosophical, theoretical, discussion…that of the nature of the unborn. I GET that the scriptures do not describe an embryo as a “living soul”. You, however, made a great leap by suggesting that they will NEVER become a living soul, if they died without inhaling air. You have no scripture for that notion, but more importantly, you don’t realize the consequences of that idea—whether it’s true or not. Most people, believers or not, consider abortion to be a moral issue. With your viewpoint, you essentially invalidate any morality of abortion! It’s neither right, nor wrong… It just is. I find this intriguing…
But part of the consequences of your idea is the question of what then are fetuses, and what should we be permitted (in God’s eyes) to do with their dead bodies, once aborted? That’s why I asked. If you yet hold to the idea that “abortion is still wrong”, I ask why? See my above questions to JFK…
Also, in your view, it follows that the mother of a baby which she greatly desired to have, having carried to full term but had it die during birth, actually lost…exactly nothing. Her love for this child was a fantasy. She cannot ever hope to see or know it; a figment of her imagination ultimately, no better than a stuffed doll. It never was, and it was never going to be a child of God. A burial for the unborn then carries no more meaning than a burial for a lawn ornament. That’s some tough theology, sister! :o
Kat:
The politics that I see here is you're bringing in what the world's view is on this and the raging debate among Christendom and politicians. What do they know of spiritual matters? Opinions are just that, it is the Scripture where we find wisdom. I do not care to discuss what is being done in the world, I want to keep myself separate from this present evil age and all that it is involved with doing.
Gal 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
There is a Scripture in Job that does indicate that to die in the womb does end that life's existence.
Job 10:18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me!
v. 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. (NKJV)
Job 10:19 I would have been just as if I had not come into being; I would have been fetched from the belly to the tomb. (CLV)
Job 10:19 as if I had never existed; carried from the womb to the grave. (ISV)
Yes this is a difficult thing to comprehend, but I do not decide what it should be, but if it is what the Scripture teach, then so be it. God knows the end from the beginning and has determined everything that will be in this world. If He has determined that a person will be born, then they will be and nothing can stop that from happening and He will give that baby the spirit of life when it is born. But He also knows the exact number of all those that were conceived, but were never meant to be born alive as well.
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
As far as what should happen to the dead, Jesus answered that as well.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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