> General Discussions
Spiritual death
Jeff:
--- Quote from: Rick on September 29, 2015, 06:29:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kat on September 29, 2015, 05:12:02 PM ---
If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Rom 8:11 to me is set for a future date, what my meaning is here is that I have a mortal body, my body has life already, I’m a living soul as we speak.
The Fathers spirit in Christ raised Christ from the grave three days after His crucifixion and this same spirit that was in Christ will raise our mortal bodies too at the resurrection.
So I’m confused to your statement ( gives spiritual life to a believer ) what is your understanding or meaning about ( spiritual life to a believer ) ?
Is your meaning the same as my understanding ? At the resurrection ?
--- End quote ---
I agree Rick. I believe this speaks to the future. Colossians 2:9 uses the Greek word (sōmatikōs) which means "spiritual body"
Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (sōmatikōs)
rick:
--- Quote from: Jeff on September 29, 2015, 07:18:22 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 29, 2015, 04:20:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jeff on September 29, 2015, 03:50:36 PM ---Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
--- End quote ---
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
--- End quote ---
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
--- End quote ---
Hi Jeff,
God’s elect do sin, just not on the level they once had or at least should not. Remember this scripture, as a man thinks so he is.
What if a man thinks he’s more God centered than self centered ? How would that effect the attitude of his mind ?
John the Baptist said He must increase I must decrease, to me , that means I must become more God centered and the more I become God centered the less I become self centered. The less I become self centered the more my life is hid with Christ. Takes a life time Jeff.
I’m not proud of my sins but they do keep me humble, Ray said that he did not sin as much but he still did sin just not as much as he once did.
We are alive and we do sin, and we will pay for our sins as much as I can tell, Jesus paid for all the sins of the world correct, so if Jesus died for my sins why must I grow old and die ?
For the wages of sin is death and I sinned and I shall die, so what does Christ sacrifice mean to me ? Salvation, spiritual life after the resurrection, right now the only life I have is physical life but also a relationship with Christ in my physical life.
If spirits have spiritual lives what do human beings have?
God bless.
Jeff:
--- Quote ---...we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come: "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14)
--- End quote ---
Kat,
I think this indicates that what we have now is "earnest" which means "a portion of something, given or done in advance, as a pledge of the remainder."
What we have is a promise of God's Spirit - "proof of more to come" that can only mean "as yet unfulfilled"
An inheritance comes at the completion. It's given as a trust. We're "sealed" in that promise [not now; not yet; but later]"
Jeff:
--- Quote from: Rick on September 29, 2015, 07:50:29 PM ---God’s elect do sin, just not on the level they once had or at least should not. Remember this scripture, as a man thinks so he is.
I’m not proud of my sins but they do keep me humble, Ray said that he did not sin as much but he still did sin just not as much as he once did.
We are alive and we do sin, and we will pay for our sins as much as I can tell, Jesus paid for all the sins of the world correct, so if Jesus died for my sins why must I grow old and die ?
For the wages of sin is death and I sinned
--- End quote ---
Which is why I don't think we can experience Spiritual life "completeness" until Christ returns.
James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Sin is sin. We aren't complete. We have a promise. I just don't understand how carnal man can have the fullness of God in him.
Kat:
Hi Rick and Jeff,
We have only received an earnest of the Holy Spirit while still in the flesh, but we are then His temple and are sealed with the promise.
2Cor 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
v. 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (also Eph 1:13)
1Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own,
v. 20 for you are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
The Spirit indwelling gives us the earnest of that eonian life now, so that we are able to overcome, to obey and bare fruit of the Spirit. With the Spirit of Christ indwelling we are no longer in bondage to the physical... Jesus Christ gives us life, spiritual knowledge beyond the physical. The Spirit indwelling creates a hunger/thirst for spiritual food.
Mat 4:4 But He answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
John 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal (eonian) life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
So believers are "made alive" now, in this life... not as spirit beings, but having the mind of Christ (1Cor2:16),
John 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal (eonian) life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
v. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
v. 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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