> General Discussions
Spiritual death
Jeff:
Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: Jeff on September 29, 2015, 03:50:36 PM ---Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
--- End quote ---
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
Kat:
Hi Jeff,
If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
v. 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
v. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
1John 5:11 and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this--the life--is in His Son;
v. 12 he who is having the Son, hath the life; he who is not having the Son of God--the life he hath not. (Young's)
Now this 'life' that comes with the Holy Spirit indwelling is just a earnest that we have in this life, a believer will not be perfected while still in the flesh, not until resurrection. Here are a few places Ray spoke on this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,96.0.html ----
Dear Billy:
Unfortunately, the Greek word translated "born" is also the same Greek word translated "begotten." Therefore it is sometimes difficult to know whether a verse means "begotten" or "born." The truth is that all of God's promises to and for us in this life are in "earnest or down payment" of what is to follow. We have God's spirit in earnest only; we have eonian life in earnest only; we have understanding and perception in earnest only. In the resurrection we will be, "like the wind," "LIKE HIM" (I John 3:2).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html -----
Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie
Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again". All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection. We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------
But Jesus is now raised from the dead and is the Live Tree, the Tree of LIFE. We get a "taste" of this life when God gives us of His Holy Spirit. But we receive only the "earnest" or down payment in this life:
"…you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL [at a later date] the redemption of the purchased possession…" (Eph. 1:13b-14).
At the resurrection we will be changed:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: for we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2-3).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html ---
Dear Bobby:
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come: "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.
God be with you,
Ray
rick:
--- Quote from: Kat on September 29, 2015, 05:12:02 PM ---
If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Rom 8:11 to me is set for a future date, what my meaning is here is that I have a mortal body, my body has life already, I’m a living soul as we speak.
The Fathers spirit in Christ raised Christ from the grave three days after His crucifixion and this same spirit that was in Christ will raise our mortal bodies too at the resurrection.
So I’m confused to your statement ( gives spiritual life to a believer ) what is your understanding or meaning about ( spiritual life to a believer ) ?
Is your meaning the same as my understanding ? At the resurrection ?
Jeff:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 29, 2015, 04:20:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: Jeff on September 29, 2015, 03:50:36 PM ---Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
--- End quote ---
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
--- End quote ---
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
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