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Author Topic: Zacharias and Elizabeth  (Read 2560 times)

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Zacharias and Elizabeth
« on: October 15, 2015, 02:38:57 AM »

Dear Forum
I am disappointed by the treatment which was handed out to Gina, who put forward an observation for the forum to discuss.    Gina referred to Luke 1 and said she had noticed a few things and offered them for us to consider.   I did not see a single reply which bothered to take into account the verses with which she began her thread.

Luke 1: 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
41 And it occurred, as Elizabeth hears the salutation of Mary, the babe jumps in her womb, and Elizabeth is filled with Holy Spirit, (CLV) (and KJV)

I will add one more…..
67 His father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:   
When I took the time to read these verses, I too saw what Gina had mentioned.  And similar questions to hers came to my mind.   I am quite familiar with what Ray has written, portions of which were provided as the thread progressed.

Let me stress I am not in any way setting out to refute or contradict what Ray wrote.   
Those verses in Luke nevertheless do stare us in the face.  What are we to make of them?   Nobody really addressed that line of thought.   Because it had caught my interest, I did go searching to see what other relevant material I could find.  Here is what I discovered.

Luke 2:25  And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luke 2:26  And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luke 2:27  And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 

This repeated mention of the Holy Spirit made me think about the interaction upon people BEFORE Jesus was physically born, which Gina raised.    At this stage, I am not considering any of the “earlier prophets” of Old Testament times.   I know what Ray correctly taught about their lack of full realisation of what they had prophesied.

As I continued reading, I asked myself, well… was Simeon able to say what he did with such accuracy?  How had he “learned” these things?  I don’t usually list a whole “slab of verses”, but will on this occasion, so they might be read and analysed.

Luke 2:28  Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29  Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:  30  For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,   31  Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;  32  A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luke 2:33  And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.  34  And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set [destined]  for the fall [downfall, crash, a stumbling block]  and rising again [resurrection] of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against [disputed];   

How does any man speak these words unless intentionally inspired by the Holy Spirit, directly influencing his thoughts (and his physical steps) ?  That is exactly what verses 25 and 26 say. 

Luke 2:35  (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

And here’s yet another person, speaking prophetically – how else….. except by means of the Holy Spirit…..

Luke 2:36  And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;    37  And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.    38  And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

We continue to read about John and how the word of God “came to him”….how else except by the Holy Spirit?
Luke 3:2  Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.   3  And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;    4  As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Does anybody imagine that John simply “dreamed up something interesting to say” all by his own accord?
Luke 3:5  Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;    6  And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.    7  Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?   

Have we stopped to think how all this “happened to take place” unless it was directly influenced by the Holy Spirit?    Having read Ray’s articles, I can just “hear” him asking such a question in order to get his readers to try using their God-given brains, to quote him.

Luke 3:10  And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
Then John replied, with “uncanny accuracy” the same things we read that Jesus said in Matthew 25.    I see the Holy Spirit at work again….does anybody else?

Luke 3:11  He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.   
I’ll skip a couple of verses…..

Luke 3:15  And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
No wonder they were scratching their heads….the same Spirit was “working” in both John the Baptist as it was in Jesus Christ….to differing degrees, I will allow.

Luke 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luke 3:17  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.   

Who informed John of THAT?   That was looking a long way into the future.

Luke 4:1  And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Funny thing….that’s where John the Baptist had been, as he was being tutored by the same Holy Spirit.
I don’t think Gina’s questions were so “far out”; does anybody still? 

I have been studying Ray’s Twelve God given rules to understand His Word
When I came to    Truth Number 5    I read……. 

Everything from Genesis to Revelation pertains to a higher SPIRITUAL meaning than the physical examples, parables, metaphors, allegories, stories and symbols in which they are written.                 "Let us make man in Our Image" (Gen. 1:26) are words of SPIRIT: "…Surely I come quickly…" (Rev. 22:20) are words of SPIRIT.   God does not look like a six-foot man or a five-foot woman. Jesus comes quickly to us, not to the world.     [ End of quote from Ray’s article]

“Everything from Genesis”….that would include the account of the Garden of Eden.  In another recent thread, some comments were criticised or downplayed, because they did not line up word for word with peoples’ somewhat rigid conclusions. 

If some can’t think past an apple tree and a serpent, then that’s fine…. for those who cannot.  We are all at differing stages of spiritual development, so let us gently remember that as we interact.

I asked myself, “why did Ray provide us with guidelines” in order that we can better understand God’s word?

Did he expect us to never “expand” on the fundamental truths?   To not only see/know where a parable does not carry a literal meaning….but that we are to “search for” the higher spiritual meaning (as the quote from Ray above proves).    Now, before anybody shoots me down, expand does NOT mean contradict.

Or make up our own fanciful notions and claim they fit the parable.   That would lead to chaos….back to Babylon.

However the parables DO carry higher spiritual meanings.   
Have we “got it made” by being able to quote Ray verbatim and no more – no less?  Ray knew he didn’t cover everything, and in giving us correct precepts and a wonderful example in thinking for ourselves with the aid of God’s spirit, he DID encourage his readers to “exercise and use their talents”. 

  The LOF series is filled with such admonishments. 

This is where the forum can be an “exercise ground” - not an arena where disputation is the “order of the day”.      Sometimes a read through the book of Proverbs will help correct our thoughts.  We can “spin our wheels” arguing to what degree Solomon was led by the Spirit, but the fact remains the content of his writings are “Spirit inspired”.      They contain spiritual “gems”.      Colin


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2015, 03:29:20 AM »

It's very simple to me, Colin.  THE Holy spirit as a third person of a trinity does not exist.  HOLY SPIRIT does exist.  In contexts, it could be referred to as 'the Holy Spirit', though I think the emphasis is on the ADJECTIVE, not the noun.  "God" is spirit, and the Father of spirits.  Other "spirits" also exist, though I am far away from 'seeing' them as "Caspar--the friendly ghost"-like--even really big ones.  If we read those scriptures with even the remnant of christian theology, we're bound to confusion and dispute.

Those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth. 

It could be that part of the reason John 'foresaw' what Jesus was doing and would do is that he knew--and believed--the prophecy.  He worshiped Him in Spirit and Truth.

As for the rest of it:

I'm sorry that some feel the forum is too limited in it's function and purpose.  I am not sorry, however, that it IS limited in function and purpose.  It is a web-forum, and not a church.  We are not going to hire another 'pastor'.  Please let the moderators moderate the web-forum.  For a small group of part-time volunteers who ourselves don't have "all truth", I think we usually do pretty well.  If you feel differently, PM one of us.   
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2015, 11:06:05 AM »


Gina's questions were answered by both ray and ourselves.

No one disputes the use of God's spirit prior to Christ's ressurection as having been used to prophecy or peform a very specific task. In the old testament, the spirit of God didn't fill all of God's people. It's the very reason Moses pleaded with God for help in dealing with Isreal so that God took the spirit and gave it to 70 elders (but not the rest of His people). The holy spirit also departed from men in the old testament after a specific function was served. The example I gave was Saul but even Samson lost it too when the Lord departed from him.

In the old testament, God dwelt in a PHYSICAL temple but that changes after Jesus. Why? Because now is the time to worship God in spirit and truth, it wasn't before, and the men before us were carnal even though they may have appeared good relative to other men. It is because God used them for that specific purpose that was all occuring for our benefit so that we could learn from them but not because they were spiritual, righteous, or had the mind of Christ, but because God had worked through them to accomplish His plan.

The old testament prophets didn't understand their own prophecies, Jesus said so Himself. They knew because God was with them, upon them, or in them--for a time-- that there was something much better to look forward to. They acknowledged they were strangers sojourning in a land not their own. Job learned of a future ressurection when His 'change would come' but he himself had no clue of who Jēsus was or how it would come about. Most in Israel could tell in a vague manner that a prince from the line of David would deliver them, a Saviour, but they had no clue it would be the very God of all things in the flesh and even when He came they still missed Him. They also though He would deliver them from their PHYSICAL enemies never realizing He would come to save them from themselves. Its that veil which is upon them when reading the scriptures, it blinds them now as it did before, this affected even the patriarchs. Daniel didn't understand his own prophecies and when he asked for an explanation he was basically told the time isn't right, its not for you, don't worry about it. The same can be said for Isaiah etc... Its why Jesus could say that many prophets and righteous men (old testament patriachs) had desired to see the things your eyes see but COULD NOT!

So with Christ comes grace and truth and a reason now for the holy spirit to dwell permanently in believers, perhaps with a purpose is more accurate, and that is to GRACE us by teaching us to deny ungodliness. God's divine influence upon our hearts (His grace) which is conforming us to His image is something the old patriarchs didn't have, not even john the baptist. Its why the least in the kingdom (first ressurection) willl be greater than John the baptist. It's why God said He was making a new covenent with Israel, where He would right His law in our inward parts, give us a new heart, because the heart has always been exceedingly weak. That includes the patriarchs and their own hearts, their carnal minds. This new heart, writting His laws upon it, is done by the grace and truth which Jesus brought through His spirit dwelling within us. Its why, for the first time, we find, our very bodies are the temple of God now as opposed to the physical building in  Jerusalem. This is not hard to understand and it harmonizes all the scriptures together, but if you take it and say, well before Jesus they had the holy spirit working in them to save them and will be in the first resurrection then you make God a liar because no one can be saved but through Jesus and the patriarchs did not know Jesus. We are flat out told they did not receive the promise (salvation) but saw it from afar. It was only after Jesus was lifted up that God would drag ALL men to Him and NOT before. The patriarchs fall into that catagory of 'ALL men.'

God bless,

« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 11:10:17 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2015, 01:28:48 PM »

Colin, I'm wondering if maybe some think that the Holy Spirit that was upon or even in people in the OT and before Pentecost is the same as the Spirit of 'Christ' that we have in us now, after His sacrifice/resurrection? It is the same Holy Spirit, but after Christ lived on earth that Spirit took on a new dimension, as the Messiah - Christ, the anointed - the Savior of the world. Yes it's the Holy Spirit of God, but it must be the Spirit of the risen Christ in particular for the chosen in this age.

Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
v. 10  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
v. 5  to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
v. 6  And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!",4472.0.html -----

So whatever you read about God in the OT, virtually always, it could be a reference slightly different, but mostly not. In the NT we have God and it’s speaking of the Father. Paul introduces every book he has written with that salutation.

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

2Cor 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course if you got a trinity, then Paul really messed up. 

1Cor 1:1  Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God…

Rom 1:7  …Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is not there. If the Holy Spirit is a person, a personality of a triune Godhead or divinity and Paul has 13 books, but never once acknowledges the Holy Spirit, something is wrong with Paul. 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians… etc., any book you open up, there is just those two.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…

Phi 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,

There is no Holy Spirit. Not that the Holy Spirit is nothing or of no consequence, it’s just not a person. Jesus Christ and God the Father ARE the Holy Spirit! Jesus Christ is that Spirit! 

John 16:7  … I will send him (the Comforter) to you. v. 15  … He shall take of Mine, and shall show it unto you.

What is He going to take of Christ? His Spirit. Where did Christ get that Spirit? From God the Father. But He is going to take of Christ, because it’s going to be the personality of Christ, see. 

Paul didn’t say, I’m crucified with God, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but the FATHER lives in me. No, it’s, “I have been crucified with CHRIST, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST lives in me.” (Gal 2:20)  But see it’s the personality of Christ, that is the spirit that lives in us and that spirit comes from God. So we can call it God’s Holy Spirit, even though it’s channeled through Christ. Jehovah /Elohim, God the Father(Elohim), you know.

Hope this is helpful in what we are trying to say, it's only through Jesus Christ.

Acts 15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

2Cor 5:18  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

Rom 3:24  being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Rom 5:21  that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:17  For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

1Cor 15:57  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There are so many more verses on this, but I'll stop there.

mercy, peace and love
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 03:32:50 PM by Kat »


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2015, 07:15:29 PM »

I know i'm just a babe still on the milk but that makes sense to me,great info Alex,Dave and Kat awesome ,also i'm not saying this as a pat on the back i'm so thankful to all who God has blessed to be able to help those like me.

Much Love


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2015, 11:45:12 PM »

Dear Dave, Alex, Kat

Many thanks for each one of your replies.  I had hesitated before I posted, because I did not wish to create any semblance of disagreement.   The answers you have given me have helped me to “piece together” a subject which I was not clear about.

  I did not consciously hold any ideas of the Holy Spirit being a “person” like those who promote the false trinity concept.  Ray “nailed” that long ago for me.

 As you pointed out Dave, a “residual” portion of that teaching plus the use of capitalised font in the KJV (and others) tends to imprint an idea, which Kat went on to clarify and unravel for me.  Your mention of an adjective sense, Dave, began to lift a veil - a point which Alex very effectively used to assist me.    I am grateful for all of you taking the time to provide me with answers.    I can see the “hand of God” at work, for it brought about a combined effort to not only satisfy my query, but others will benefit, I am sure.   

Dave, it wasn’t so much my feeling that the forum appears to be too limited, but rather, I saw a scriptural reference which had been left “unnoticed” and that began a chain of thoughts, which I deemed worth a mention.    I suppose there is a degree of limitation for somebody like me, living by myself and not having any recourse to discuss matters face to face….but that is the case for many of us.   Maybe I need to work on “patience” - I do learn from the forum with the many ideas put forward and answered (no doubt at a slower pace than I realise or desire)…even incorrect ideas that have been posted, and which elicit correction are a means for me to learn from as well.    Ray made use of a similar technique in a way by using rhetorical questions in his articles and answers to readers, to get a correct point across effectively.     

Thank you Dave for your frank and welcoming response.   I am not “skilled” at using PMs…..for an old man, approaching 80, that might be a challenging conundrum.  Emails I can manage.  And even being able to post on the forum now is an achievement!

Alex, thank you for your valuable input and the time you spent away from your medical studies to contribute.  I appreciate that.  You gave me another aspect to consider….the specific functions which were carried out through the working of the spirit of God.  Maybe that is a better way to write it, rather than the “Holy Spirit”, which has a tendency to “personify” it in our minds, which I remember Ray teaching us, is incorrect.   Right now, as I write, I am thinking of John chapter 17 and will spend some time in re-reading it while keeping in mind the answers each one of you have provided for me.

I had not considered for a moment “that they had the holy spirit working in them to save them and [thus] will be in the first resurrection”.     You are quite right when you say, “[that would] make God a liar because no one can be saved, but through Jesus - and the patriarchs did not know Jesus”.   
Alex, you also gave me something else to “take on board”….the restricted level of comprehension that the O.T. patriarchs, prophets possessed, despite their wanting to have it all made clear to them……we’re not much different, in a way….how many of us would like to “know more”….right now?    God says, “All in good time”.    OK….like a piece of clay, I’d better be content to stay on the spiritual “moulding wheel” (or whatever it’s called) and continue to be shaped, eh? 

Thank you Kat for the clarification, which you provided.   You asked,  I'm wondering if maybe some think that the Holy Spirit which was upon or even in people in the OT and before Pentecost is the same as the Spirit of 'Christ' that we have in us now, after His sacrifice/resurrection?     

My answer, upon reflection, would have been “YES”.     You went on to say :-  It is the same Holy Spirit, but after Christ lived on earth that Spirit took on a new dimension, as the Messiah - Christ, the anointed - the Saviour of the world. Yes it's the Holy Spirit of God, but it must be the Spirit of the risen Christ in particular for the chosen in this age.

The quote you gave from Galatians caused the light bulb to “come on” for me.   I had not “seen” that before….well, I had READ it, but not seen the implication “that God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts.”      I, also, had “not noticed” a verse.

Again I see the hand of God at work…..had I not posted what I had felt a strong urge to do, I would not yet understand this verse.    For answering my post, I thank you and for bringing it to my attention.    It’s like getting a new pair of “spiritual spectacles”….I can focus so much better.          With gratitude, Colin


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 01:24:57 AM »

It's very simple to me, Colin.  THE Holy spirit as a third person of a trinity does not exist.  HOLY SPIRIT does exist.  In contexts, it could be referred to as 'the Holy Spirit', 

Hi Dave,

Would you mind further elaborating on just what the Holy Spirit is, I understand what adjective means and what noun means but you confuse me as to what you think and believe the Holy Spirit is.

Is the Holy Spirit dumb ? Does the Holy Spirit have any intelligent’s ? Is the Holy Spirit just the breath of life given to Adam ? I thought the Holy Spirit was Jesus, is that correct ? I’m thinking if the Holy Spirit can teach, it must have intelligent’s but I could be wrong, am I ?

Although the forum might have limitations God has none except those that go against His will of course. Could you explain what the Holy Spirit is according to Rays teaching on the subject ?

What and who is the Holy Spirit in lay mens terms I guess is what I’m trying to understand, could you help me with my understanding ?

You speak of the Holy Spirit as if you understand the Holy Spirit so well, I would like to know ! If the Holy Spirit is not a third person As you say which I am not arguing against your point but how can the Holy Spirit do anything for me on my behalf ?

If you think I’m challenging you I’m not, I only want to know, to understand what and who the Holy Spirit is, according to you ,the Holy Spirit cannot be referred to as a who or noun, if not then what is the Holy Spirit?

God bless.  :-\
To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 05:21:09 AM »

...according to you ,the Holy Spirit cannot be referred to as a who or noun, if not then what is the Holy Spirit?

God bless.  :-\

That is not at all what I said.  There are many "spirits" (nouns) --Holy (adjective), and otherwise. 

I don't need to reiterate what I already said.  I'd just be repeating myself.  I borrowed the "Caspar the friendly ghost" thing from Ray, though I'd be hard-pressed to find it again.  Most that I know of where Ray taught on this 'subject' is in the Trinity Paper.

If you (or anybody) can tell me what Spirit (the noun) is--in clear language and without adjectives, I'm all ears.  All I know is what "spirit" is LIKE, and what spirit does. 
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 09:15:20 AM »

Colin -

Your last response is very thoughtful and considerate; and I am sure it will help many on this Forum.

Communicating via PM is like email only sent to selected Forum Members - so for example, if you typed in Gina - Gina would be selected.

Regarding the point Gina made, and the way the responses went, I am saddened - as to me Gina and John from Kentucky have shown that they know much of The Truths of God. If we understand the issue and address it in Truth to the best of our ability, it is always up to The Holy Spirit to make the understanding sure in the other Forum member.

In my experience most people (including some of The Elect) dislike (or hate) correction. Most of us understand better when we are not directly involved - so when Gina and John from Kentucky exchange their understanding - most of us can ascertain what is being said by both.

However, when someone tries to correct someone else - even in the best tone and heart - if the recipient is not willing to understand what you are saying and why you are saying it - they will NEVER clearly understand.

The Scriptures tell us that we must be willing to be corrected in The Truth - and I believe unless we can actually see ourselves in the the situation and at least try to see how others see us, we cannot begin to understand the issue - let alone correct others - or dare I say it, be corrected ourselves.

I talked in 'tongues' for a number of years, as when The Lord called me out, one of my brothers said I should go to the local Pentecostal church - which out of curiosity I did, and I lasted little more than a year there, as I daily saw the hypocrisy and lies constantly told. That is where I was told that being Born Again means I must talk in tongues. Utter Garbage.

It was not until I read Ray's paper on Talking in Tongues - and was challenged to check The Scriptural references Ray provided that I realised - O My God, how deceived have I been. One by one, through Ray's Papers, audios and videos, I researched and checked The Scriptures and finally was free of all the church lies and deception.

As Ray says - Why do you say you Love Me and do not do what I say - Pastors and Leaders of the church are no different to lying politicians - whereby they think they are intelligent and smart - but really are selfish fools - the blind leading the blind. The ones that see through this charade have no option but to come out of the church and go into the wilderness.

I take no credit for any achievements on my part to be free of the false church of Christ - as it is only by His Holy Spirit that anyone can be free of deception.

Ray said many times that if something is True, the more you study it, the more True it becomes- and if a thing is False, the more you study it the more it proves to be False.

We live in a world full of marketing and illusion; and it is difficult to see reality for what it is - especially regarding the spiritual understanding we all crave for.

Let us all be humble enough to accept that all Truth that has been given to us is not of ourselves but a Free Gift from God - to be shared to those He directs us to share with in humility.

If we have mastered a particular Truth, it becomes part of us spiritually; and as such, we must be able to articulate the right response to those asking for clarity - or even to those who are yet still deceived in part. It is like the difference between a Liar and someone telling The Truth. The one telling The Truth can be stopped by a question, and answer it directly, as all they have to do is reply specifically to the question - whereas a liar is unlikely to have thought of all the questions they are likely to be asked about their lies, that they need time to try and come up with a viable answer.

Best Regards.

The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 11:38:52 AM »

Hi Rick, here are a few places Ray spoke about the Holy Spirit.,12224.0.html ----

The "Trinity" doctrine emphasizes that "God" is composed of
Three, equally Divine Persons:  God the Father, God the Son, and God the
Holy Spirit.  Right here is where the doctrines becomes unscriptural heresy.
The Holy Spirit "of" God, is not a "person."  Neither is God the Father of
our Lord Jesus Christ, a "person."  A "person" is a "human being."  Neither
God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit OF God, IS A PERSON--a human being!
Nowhere in Scripture is the Holy Spirit "of" God, CALLED GOD.  There is no
such thing as "God the Holy Spirit" in Scripture, and my authority is the Holy
Of course there is much more to it, but this is the starting point if one wishes
to know the Scriptural truth regarding this man-made doctrine. --------

The Holy spirit OF God is certainly not a "person" as you suggest. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit OF God the Father." I assure you, however, that God the Father is not the "Father OF the Holy Spirit." Think about that for a few years and it might come to you. Paul ALWAYS addressed and praised God the Father and His Lord Jesus Christ in EVERY salutation in EVERY epistle He ever wrote.Example: 

"Paul, an apostle of JESUS CHRIST by the will of GOD, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in CHRIST JESUS:  Grace be to you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER AND FROM THE LORD JESUS CHRIST" (Gal. 1:1-2).

But Paul never ONCE mentioned or addressed the Holy Spirit in ANY of his epistles EVER.  Do you have a good explanation for such an gross omission and degradation of the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is a PERSON, and VERY GOD?   Well do you?  No, of course you don't.

 Jesus Christ was "conceived by THE HOLY SPIRIT."...  And the reason that Jesus is the Son of the Father (II Jn 3), and not the son of some other person, is because his Mother, Mary, was made pregnant by His Father's "Holy Spirit."  Am I going to fast for you?,7664.0.html ---------

I have always said that God's Spirit is God. That what God does through His spirit is GOD DOING IT, and not someone else. The Spirit of God is not SOME OTHER PERSON, but God Himself.,1934.0.html ----

God is Holy and God is Spirit--therefore, God is HOLY Spirit.. Actually the "Holy Spirit" is mentioned in the Old Testament:  Psalm 51:11; Isa. 63:10, etc.,3514.0.html -----

Jesus is the Personification of the Holy Spirit (His SPIRIT FATHER living IN Him). Therefore, the Person Jesus is the "He and the Him," not the Spirit of God in Him. God the Father OWNS, if you will, His OWN Spirit. It belongs TO Him. IT is HIS. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT OWN GOD THE FATHER. Can you see and understand that? God HAS a spirit. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT HAVE A GOD, therefore, it is an IT, and not a HE or a HIM.   I have explained this many dozens of times on our site, but you are the second person today to ask this same kind of question. It is hard to rid ourselves of the Christian pagan doctrines of the Church.,4995.0.html -----------
The trinity teaching is not that the Holy Spirit is God, but that the Holy Spirit IS A PERSON!! And this is decidedly NOT SCRIPTURAL at all.

    Hello ray,
     Let me tell you i thank God for you brother. You speak what is the truth MOST of the time.  However you are mistaken on the trinity. I once read a response of yours to a reader about how there is no scripture in the bible that calls The Holy Spirit God. Obviously you have never read 2 cor 3:17

2Cor 3:17  Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
    COMMENT:  II Cor. 3:17 does NOT SAY that "The Holy Spirit is God," does it?
     which clearly states  "NOW the LORD IS THE SPIRIT".  The emphasiis is on the word "is". If you read those words backwards you would have "Now the SPIRIT IS THE LORD!.   Therefore the question becomes who is "THE LORD"?
    ALL one has to do is read the "ten" commandments to find the answer
    COMMENT:  Oh really?  In II Cor. 3:17, the word for "Lord" is "kurios" and it is used of Jesus Christ nearly 700 times in the New Testament.  "The Lord" of II Cor. 3:17 is clearly Jesus Christ, not God the Father.
    I AM "THE LORD" THY GOD THOU SHALL Have no other gods before me.  Clearly THE lord of 2 corinthians is the same LORD throughout the entire old testament, who f course  is the FATHER.
    COMMENT:  The Lord of the Old Testament is "Jehovah" which is a Proper NAME, not a title as is "Lord" in the New Testament. Even so, Jehovah was NOT Jesus' Father, but Jesus Himself. Moses heard ahnd saw Jehovah, whereas NO MAN HAS EVER seen or heard the Father (John 5:37). But of course, this would require one to believe the Scriptures, and not too many people are willing to do that.
      THerefore SInce the "SPIRIT" (holy spirit) is THE LORD(the father), the father must be the spirit.
    COMMENT:  The "Spirit" is the possession of God the Father--it is "The Spirit OF God."  However, God has given His Son Jesus Christ this SAME spirit. God has shared ALL with His Son: "ALL power in heaven and earth is given Me" (Matt. 28:18).  Jesus takes of the Spirit His Father has given Him and gives it to US (John 16:15).  The "Comforter" (the "parakletos) IS JESUS.  "And if any man sin, we have an Advocate [Gk: 'parakletos] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous" (I John 2:1). Jesus Christ IS, the Lord of the Old Testament; the Lord of the New Testament, the Comforter (Parakletos), which is the promised Holy Spirit, which comes to us through JESUS CHRIST, and so "The Lord is that SPIRIT.",12224.0.html ---------

Dear David: Thank you for your email and comments.

        No, I don't see a problem with II Cor. 13:14, as it is in keeping with other Scriptures and other statements of Paul. 

2Cor 13:14  The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.

Our fellowship/communion (they are both translated from the same Greek word), is through God's Holy Spirit which is also Christ's Holy Spirit. Remember the Spirit that Jesus promised would come to His disciples?  So it is through that Spirit that we fellowship or commune with God and Jesus. Virtually the same thing is stated in Phil. 2:1--

        Phi 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any FELLOWSHIP OF THE SPIRIT, if any bowels and mercies,


Could it be that just as Jesus is the Son "of" God and not God Himself, that the holy spirit is the spirit "of" God and not God Himself? Yes, that is what the Scriptures clearly teach. We have the Son "of" God and the spirit "of" God and yet God is "of" NO ONE!! Is there anyone who wishes to challenge this? God Almighty is out of NO ONE! God Almighty is of NO ONE!
In Mat. 12:28 Jesus said He cast out demons "by the SPIRIT of God." Yet the Pharisees claimed He did it by the power of Beezeboul. Jesus told the Pharisees that accusing Him of casting out demons "by the power of Beezeboul," when He did it by the "spirit of God," is blasphemy against the "holy spirit" (Ver. 32).

Here is clear and simple proof that the "spirit of God" and the "holy spirit" are ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT--not a third person of a so-called trinity!

Again let me state: Anything that is "of" or "from" someone else cannot BE that same someone else! Nothing can be "of" someone and yet, at the same time, "be" that same someone! This is axiomatic.

The holy spirit is something that God the Father possesses--it is not a separate, third god or deity of some fabled trinity. The spirit "of" God is "God’s" spirit. And notice that God offers His spirit as a gift to those who ask:

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)

The holy spirit is not an entity of its own, but is rather a possession of God which He gives to us.
Jesus said that He and His Father are ONE. He never said that He and the holy spirit are ONE. It is rather THROUGH the holy spirit that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son, and we are in Christ and Christ is in us and the Father is in us!

Next let’s consider who or what is the "comforter" mentioned only in John’s gospel account.

"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you [it is not "from" the holy spirit, but "from" the Father] another Comforter [this word does not require a capital letter], that he [it] may abide with you for ever [Greek: for the aion--eon or age]. Even the Spirit of truth..." (John 14:16-17 KJV).

Remember that Jesus said "I am the truth." How then can this "comforter" be coming from both His Father and Himself? Is this possible? Once we understand just what this "spirit of truth," "spirit of God," "holy spirit," "holy ghost," "comforter" really is, we will see that it certainly DOES come from both the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

John 14:17  the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be IN YOU.
Jesus was assuredly "the spirit of truth" of which He spoke. And as such Jesus was with the disciples. But now He is telling them that when He leaves them to be with the Father, He will come back to them, only this time He will not just be with them, but He will be IN them! The spirit of truth was with the apostles in the person of Jesus Christ, but He told them that after He left to be with the Father that this same spirit of truth would be in them. This is all done by "spirit," the spirit of God.

Notice verse 26 of John 14:

"Now the consoler, THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending in MY NAME..."

And see how this is done, verse 23:

"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE shall be coming to him and making OUR abode with him.

This is done through the consoler, the comforter, the spirit of truth, THE HOLY SPIRIT of God! Jesus said He would not leave them "comfortless" (Ver. 18), so for sure Jesus must return to His followers to "comfort" them. This He did and still does by the "spirit of God" which God gave to His son Jesus and which the Father then turns around and gives FROM that very same spirit in Christ TO US! The following Scripture make this plain:

"All things that the Father hath are mine [all things include the holy spirit]: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine [that is, of the spirit that His Father gave to Him], and shall shew it UNTO YOU" (John 16:15).
Here is one more proof that the "holy ghost [spirit]" and the "spirit of God" are one and the same. Here is what Jesus told His disciples would happen when they would be brought before magistrates and powers:

"And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say" (Luke 12:11-12).

Jesus told His disciples in John 16:7:

"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you."

Is this "comforter" the third God of a trinity? Let us see Who this Comforter really is! Didn’t you ever wonder why this Comforter could not come until Christ departed? The comforter does not come until Christ departs to the Father, because the comforter IS THE SON returning in the form of "spirit," "holy spirit." Jesus is saying to him,

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

"Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..."

Notice that Christ sends the comforter from the Father and what Jesus instructs. And notice that it does not involve a third person of a fabled trinity:

"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you in to all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." (John 16:13-15).

This is not hard to understand. The spirit of Truth is Christ. The comforter is Christ. The spirit will be speaking TO the disciples THROUGH Christ’s spirit which is His because the Father gave this spirit TO HIM! There’s no trinity here.

Jesus said:

"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).

Now notice how clear Jesus makes this. Who or What is this spirit, holy spirit, holy ghost, spirit of truth, comforter? Is it really the third person of a triune God? Let Jesus Himself answer:

"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).

"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).

"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).


In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:

"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."

In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"

« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 03:05:00 PM by Kat »


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2015, 10:31:19 PM »

Hi Kat,

It seems what Ray is saying is that God is Holy and God is Spirit, ( Holy Spirit ) so I think God is the Holy Spirit but then Ray goes on to mention the Holy Spirit “ of “ God.

Then Ray goes on to say that nowhere in Scripture is the Holy Spirit "of" God called God and there is no such thing as God the Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit is not God but the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and that God the Father is not the "Father of the Holy Spirit.

Now Jesus Christ was "conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT and Mary, was made pregnant by His Father's "Holy Spirit.

Now, this is an interesting quote from Ray,( I have always said that God's Spirit is God. That what God does through His spirit is GOD DOING IT, and not someone else. The Spirit of God is not SOME OTHER PERSON, but God Himself.)

Now according to Ray Jesus is the personification of the Holy Spirit, His Spirit Father living in Him therefore the person of Jesus is the He Him but not the Spirit of God in Him

So now, God the Father has a Spirit but the Holy Sprit has no God so the Holy Spirit is an it, not a He or a Him.

Ray taught that we have a body and a spirit and together they produce the soul and that the soul is who we are, the seat of our emotions. I’m wondering if the Holy Spirit is the Soul of God if you will ?

Or could it be that the Holy Spirit is the power of God ?

What’s throwing me off I guess is that the Holy Spirit is not a He or a Him but it was the Holy Spirit that made Mary pregnant ?

Have you any other thoughts on the matter ?

God bless.   :)
To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2015, 12:07:56 AM »

Hi Rick, to my understanding the Holy Spirit is the power of God the Father, it's like an attribute of His, the means by which He operates. I do not think of it as a title or name for God, like Ray said "the holy spirit is something that God the Father possesses," it's like a characteristic or inherent part of Him.

Now Jesus Christ was "conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT and Mary, was made pregnant by His Father's "Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Notice that this verse says when the Holy Spirit would come to Mary it was the "power of the Most High," it wasn't something separate from the Father, it was the Father that caused her to become impregnated, by His power, Holy Spirit.

Also notice how all these Scripture make the connection between God's power and His Holy spirit.

Luke 4:14  Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region.

Acts 1:8  But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Rom 1:4  and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Rom 15:13  Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2015, 12:49:54 AM »

Colin, I'm glad this has been helpful to you.  This is a side note, but I wanted to share it with you.

Underneath every member's username to the left of their post is a little box with an upside-down ^ at the bottom--like a cartoon text balloon.  Clicking that box allows you to send that member a private message.

Also, if you simply click an active member's username, it will take you to their profile.  From there you can also find a link to send a private message.  At the top of the forum is a link called "my messages".  If and when you receive a message, there will be a number by that link telling you that you have, and how many.  Click that link, and you can read, and reply there.  It's at least as easy as email, so with maybe a little practice, you'll be a whiz.   :D
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.


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Re: Zacharias and Elizabeth
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2015, 01:40:14 AM »

Hi Rick, to my understanding the Holy Spirit is the power of God the Father

Hi Kat,

So, I see the Holy Spirit is the power of God the Father and the intelligent’s behind the Holy Spirit is God the Father.

The Holy Spirit executes the Fathers desires and Gen 1 :2 and Luke 1 :35 are two matches to say this is Gods truth.

Gen 1:2  And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Luk 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

Thanks Kat and God Bless.  :)
To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.
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