Trust

[Jeff]

I was praying about something tonight and I think it was clear that "trust Me and be patient" is what I need to do.  So I wanted to read about trust and patience (56 years and I'm still trying to learn something like this).

I was wondering if someone could help me understand this verse?

This from Young's Literal Translation

Job 39:11 "Dost thou trust in him because great is his power? And dost thou leave unto him thy labour?"

My understanding says that Job is being asked if he's willing to trust God in spite of his dire circumstances, but I'm not entirely sure.

Jeff

[cheekie3]

Jeff -

I have meditated on this for a very long time.

My conclusion is that faith, trust and believe are all the same. Also, hope.

I personally look at this - like this - God instructs you to walk blind (as you do not know what will happen) and trust Him, as He is in control of all things.

I equate this as walking off a cliff or tall building and trusting Him to keep you alive and not fall.

We have some that believe in self power or wealth or power. Whatever (I really hate this word by the way).

But the ultimate question is who controls the rich, who is giving them their wealth and power.

Obviously it is The Lord God Almighty; as He is All in All. Ultimately, when His Plan for His Creation (Mankind, Angels and the rest) is completed - He will be All in All in Righteousness.

The beauty is that even the elite of this world who steal from the working class to make themselves wealthy will ultimately see themselves as they really are, repent and be purified by Him.

Even our mistakes and sins have a preordained purpose. When He enlightens us to His Truth, we should be yearning to not sin and do Right and please Him - but only He can give each one of us the ability to fulfill our Hearts desires. Or put another way - He brings about our desire to do Good, and then He enables us to fulfill our heart's desires.

I hope this helps.

In Holy Spirit.

George.

[indianabob]

Well said George,

One other thing I have learned and am still learning.
Try as I might, I cannot do rightly on my own strength.
It is almost as if God has reduced my strength in certain areas to teach me how much I need Him and to communicate with Him each day.
-
I used to think that I could do right for a couple of weeks at a time without prayer and fasting.
More recently, as I get closer to the end of my journey, I have to acknowledge that my own strength last only a couple of days, if that, and then temptation raises it's ugly head once again.

My thought is that after we are changed to spirit we will no longer harbor such thoughts. Then we will know even as we are known. We need the LORD God every moment as long as we live, even forever!

Indiana Bob

[cheekie3]

Indiana Bob -

I see Good like this:

Jesus Christ's Father was in Him doing all His Good Works; and Jesus did not sin at all.

When His Elect in this age do Good, it is because Jesus lives in their hearts - and where Jesus is, His Father is also.

So when His Elect do Good, it is really The Father through His Son (in His Elect or His Body) that is doing the Good - if you like this is a preview of when God will be All in All (in Righteousness).

Although His Elect do not take credit for doing His Good Works - nevertheless, The Father has decided to conduct His Good Works through His Son and His Son's Body (the True Church of His Called Out Ones).

In Humility.

George.

[judy]

Indiana Bob, last thing i want to do sometimes is pray. it feels dry and empty but as i continue it gets better. i have to pray more by the hour some day , I slide down quickly when i don't. I think that dry empty prayer is is the hardest to start, so many other things rrab my attention. If only for a minute or two even helps. I never force myself too hard, found out it better to call on the Holy Spirit.

[Jeff]

Judy,

I think I can relate to what you said. I've had times in my life where it seemed like I was saying the same thing over and over day after day, but I imagine it's because I wasn't putting myself into it - I wasn't investing in my time with God. I think just like in a marriage we have to put effort into keeping our relationship with God - alive.  I know there are many times when I've closed my eyes and simply expected God to help me worship, as though I have no part in it.

Lately, however, I'm finding that I'm so scattered and distracted that I can't focus for more than a sentence, before my mind is on some other irrelevant thing, usually of no value, and likely, probably a worry.  I try to combat this by praying all day in short thoughts. Maybe a thank you, or a please help me focus for a minute, or please bless someone that comes to mind (although I don't know if that last one has any value, but you never know - God may have put that thought in my head)

Peace
Jeff

[cheekie3]

Jeff -

I do not not believe we control our thoughts - but Our Heavenly Father controls our thoughts.

When I have a thought I do not understand, I ask Him to confirm what it is all about - and I wait patiently for His Truth of it - whether or not I get an answer immediately, later or not at all.

I hope this helps a little.

Regards.

George.

[Jeff]

Hi George,

What do you mean when you say "control"?

I don't think you mean that every thought we have was placed there by God or do you?

Jeff

[Terry]

Good post Jeff,
Bob,your reply is me to a tee,when i think i'm over coming something, i think maybe i think its something i have done,me,me,me, when its not me at all,its Jesus and only him, i'm learning i can do nothing of my self,the more i understand that the easier it is.

Judy,i know exactly what your'e saying,it seems for me anyway forced prayer does't help much,maybe i'm not sure,but there are times i feel led by the Spirit to pray,at these times i feel Gods spirit,i feel love,i feel Gods presents,most of the time i'm in tears from his presents i feel,i love those times. I think about you all the time,you  remind me of my mom she had a hard life from my dad who was a drinker,it breaks my heart to hear what you've  been through, as i grew up seeing the same thing,i pray God gives you peace.
Terry

[cheekie3]

Jeff -

Hi George,

What do you mean when you say "control"?

I don't think you mean that every thought we have was placed there by God or do you?

Jeff

As no one has a free will, I understand that ALL is controlled or worked out (or becomes into being) by Our Heavenly Father.

Otherwise, if we have free will, then we are accountable for our thoughts - but as He is Accountable for ALL - this must include our thoughts (Good or bad).

I hope this helps.

In Truth.

George.

[Kat]

Hi George, there is a very fine line between being caused and controlled, but there is a difference... control almost has the same sense as being made to act, speak and even what we think... I don't see it that way.

God has created this world and by Him it consists, continue to exist, so He is responsible/sovereign for every single thing that happens. But He has enacted all the many laws of this creation so that it continues as He wants it to... all the intricate interactions of everything in the vast universe is His doing.

But I don't believe He created the human race to be controlled and not have a mind of their own and certainly we live under the law of cause and effect.

Pro 16:9  A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

But we need to understand the nuances of not having a free will... here are some emails that should help.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6440.msg51812.html#msg51812 ---

If it is God who controls our every thought and action, would'nt your teachings be in vain? If we cant make the decision to renew our minds, then why waste your energy and time trying to convince us of truth?  I agree with 99.9% of your teachings, but I'm struggling with this one.  God Bless Your Heart, Chad


Dear Chad:

You make all your own choices and you think all your own thoughts, and you have a "will" to do so. What you don't have, is a will that is FREE FROM CAUSALITY to do these things. People will say things like: "What ever MADE you think that; or what ever MADE you do such and such."  There is your answer. We know inherently that there are reasons CAUSES for your thoughts and choices. You can't make a choice that does not have a cause somewhere, and if something is caused to happen it could not have been otherwise.

I teach the truths of God because this is just one way that God CAUSES people to see the truth (I Cor. 1:21).  The foolishness of teaching and preaching CAUSES people to see and understand and believe and act accordingly. It is not correct to state as you have that "God CONTROLS our every thought and action."  He does not need to "control" us, as He already knows far in advance exactly what we WILL DO AND THINK based on the conditions and circumstances of our individual lives.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html -----------

         I am still battling on the fact that we do not really have a choice as to what we are going to do in this whole plan of God's. Are we then just robots?

        With the love of Christ,
        Michael

        Dear Michael:  Regarding you last statement, Michael, you are not understanding properly. OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE.  Whose do think it is?  When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice?  If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth?  Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well?  No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did.

         Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it?  We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.       

        Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what?  It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE.  Can you now understand it?

        Do you still think you are a robot?  I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2943.0.html ----

I understand, Paul, that this truth is difficult for most to comprehend.  And I
am not completely sure why this is so.  I think possibly because we have
been trained and programmed to see too many things in only two dimensions,
when in reality there is a third dimension, but it is an illusion created by God
giving us two eyes spaced apart at the right distances to give us the illusion of
depth perception.  Well, we need a little spiritual depth perception.

Theologians and clerics would have us believe that there are only two possibilities
with regards to man's either having free choice or not having free choice.

[1]  We either have free will/choice and can make decisions based on no causing factors
whatsoever. We supposedly just create thoughts and actions out of NOTHING. Or,

[2]  We are dumb robots.

Their is no third alternative for them.  But here is the alternative truth that is in the
Scriptures and in the real work-a-day world.  We have no free choice or free will
which is not caused by anything, as such a fabled idea is not only unscriptural, but
also a physiological impossibility.  But........BUT, the alternative is not that we are
then "dumb robots."  No, a thousand times, NO.  We are intelligent.  A person can
be intelligent and yet not have free will.  We can think.  A person can think and
yet not have free will.  We can plan, think spacially, create, imagine, analyze and
manipulate difficult numbers and concepts, and WE CAN LEARN.  I do not believe
that we shall ever build such robots as ourselves, and even if we did, we would have
to conclude that it was OUR INTELLIGENCE that built them, and they still would
not have free will or free choice either.

The fact that our choices are caused by some factor does not turn us into robots. And
because we are highly complicated and intelligent, it is God's purpose for us to experience
evil and then learn from it and choose to do good.  Suffering the pain of making bad
decisions or being Judged by God for making bad decisions is a GOOD thing, not a bad.
Certainly we do not punish a robot if it malfunctions, but robots don't have hearts and minds
and consciences to direct them or give them guilt when they do wrong. Humans are highly
developed mechanisms, organisms, creatures, etc., plus we have a spirit at our core. Something
that no robot will ever have  It is right and good that God should judge us
for doing bad things from our hearts and minds within.  Ask God to continue opening your
mind to these difficult concepts.

God be with you,
Ray

[cheekie3]

Kat -

I personally do not see any significant difference between 'control' or 'cause'; please note the following:

I know that there is more than one definition for 'cause' and 'control' - and here are two definitions (one for each):
 
CAUSE - a person, thing, event, state, or action that produces an effect.
CONTROL - Authority or ability to manage or direct. One that controls; a controlling agent, device, or organization.

I see it like this:

A. CAUSE

Is not Our Heavenly Father responsible for causing our exchange via this Forum.

B. CONTROL

Is not Our Heavenly Father responsible for controlling the causes that brought us to this exchange via this Forum.

I do believe Our Heavenly Father 'causes' or 'controls' our hearts desires (whether Good or evil at any point in time), our thoughts (whether Good or evil at any point in time), our speech (whether Good or evil at any point in time) and our actions (whether Good or evil at any point in time). Or put another way, I believe He 'causes' or 'controls' every aspect of our being at every point in time (whether Good or evil).

In Humility and in continuous search of His Truths.

George.

[Kat]

George, I do see what you're saying...  I think it's important to speak in a way that helps those reading here by conveying a better understanding and some words are better than others. Not everybody has reached a good understanding of these things and we need to be very clear in what we say. So it's just that saying God 'controls' us comes across as He is directly making us do, say and think everything and that we don't even have a will of our own. But as those emails brought out we certainly do have a will, we think and plan and reason things out in our minds and make decisions... God does not think for us.

Now it is true that God is sovereign and this creation is working according to His perfect will and we are predestined by the foreknowledge of God. There is a difference to say man is controlled or caused.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2354.0 -------------

Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
v
God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

God be with you,
Ray

[Jeff]

Hi George

KJV Psalm 139:23 "Search me O God and know my heart,  try me, and know MY thoughts"

I think I understand what you're saying too.  God is Soverign and if He "wants" to control our thoughts then He "will".

The Adversary also has an ability to influence our thinking, and our hearts, and while it's true that he's subject to God, I believe he has some latitude in what he does.  He asked permission to interrupt Job's bliss, but that would seem to be a special circumstance meant to teach us something about our Creator. Or not, I honestly don't know.

John 12:31 " Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Satan is the ruler of this world.

I pulled this from Ray's Lake of Fire Series Part 9 (I'm on an iPad and I can't see how to pull the URL in) but...

"…that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world…" (Rev. 12:9).

If we can be deceived by the enemy, the destroyer, then he's going to need access to our minds and hearts.

Acts 5:4 "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?

Ray spoke about our being robots...

LOF Part 4

"Are you saying that people are mere 'marionettes'?" Or "robots?"

No. But what if there are certain similarities between robots and humans? Is that a "sin" on God's part? Certainly the human brain is many times more complex than all the computers in the world, but nonetheless, the human is still not independent of God."

It seems to me, and please correct me if m wrong, but this sounds like what you're expressing.

Peace
Jeff

[cheekie3]

Jeff -

Hi George

KJV Psalm 139:23 "Search me O God and know my heart,  try me, and know MY thoughts"

I think I understand what you're saying too.  God is Sovereign and if He "wants" to control our thoughts then He "will".

The Adversary also has an ability to influence our thinking, and our hearts, and while it's true that he's subject to God, I believe he has some latitude in what he does.  He asked permission to interrupt Job's bliss, but that would seem to be a special circumstance meant to teach us something about our Creator. Or not, I honestly don't know.

John 12:31 " Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Satan is the ruler of this world.

I pulled this from Ray's Lake of Fire Series Part 9 (I'm on an iPad and I can't see how to pull the URL in) but...

"...that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world..." (Rev. 12:9).

If we can be deceived by the enemy, the destroyer, then he's going to need access to our minds and hearts.

Acts 5:4 "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?

Ray spoke about our being robots...

LOF Part 4

"Are you saying that people are mere 'marionettes'?" Or "robots?"

No. But what if there are certain similarities between robots and humans? Is that a "sin" on God's part? Certainly the human brain is many times more complex than all the computers in the world, but nonetheless, the human is still not independent of God."

It seems to me, and please correct me if m wrong, but this sounds like what you're expressing.

Peace
Jeff

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I will try to explain how I see things (whether they be correct or not):

A. HIS WORKS IN PROGRESS: HUMANITY (AND OUR HEARTS' DESIRES, OUR THOUGHTS, OUR SPEECH & OUR ACTIONS)

We are the clay in His Hands; and I believe this includes our hearts and minds.

Who opens our hearts and minds to The Truth, and the deception of the devil (Satan) - is it not The Almighty Father.
Who does NOT open our hearts and minds to The Truth, and the deception of the devil (Satan) - is it not The Almighty Father.

Yes, the choices are all ours as we make these decisions (whether it is what we prefer like apple pie or something else, or at times making a decision we know will have consequences) - but ultimately, it is He who causes us to be in these situations. Satan is not above Him, and he has limitations as he is a created being (and also has no free will).

Have you not ever once been in a situation whereby who are faced with choices; and you weigh them up, and it is between a rock and a hard place. Who caused this situation for you - were you free to not be in that situation.

I have been in such situations, and my response has been - Lord, I do not know why you have placed me in this impossible situation; and surely You know that I have no Good way out, so I am not in a position to do anything but make this decision and you know from my heart's desire why that is, and unless you provide me with a way out, I am going to make this decision in order to make the best of this horrible situation (which I did not cause - as it was out of my control), and be it on my head, as I take full accountability for it. I repent in advance and in Jesus' name I ask you to forgive me (as I forgive all others) - as I feel I have NO OPTION but to choose this option. Is this not another way of saying that He knows the end from the beginning (and we do not), and there is nothing in us or of us but to do what He has preordained we will do as part of His Holy Plan of Love (for us) to experience Good and evil (necessary for us all to become in His Image).

To me, the Absolute Truth of this matter, is that Humanity is from Him, and He has a Plan to make us in His Image - and He has decided to do this by giving us life (which we did not ask for) and putting us in this world to experience the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. I do not understand all of this - but I do understand that without opposites it is impossible for us to know the difference and to make a choice. So, we all experience both Good and evil, in order to KNOW why we should choose Good. It appears to me however, that the balance (for me and my family at least) is not 50 / 50 - as I and we have experienced more evil than Good. I know of no Scriptures that has any mathematics on this - but it appears to me that if He has placed in your heart to desire Good, you are going to suffer a lot, and He will NOT give you any short cuts or a way to escape - but He does confirm that after we experience this evil, it will build in each of us His Godly characteristics (or His Fruit of His Spirit, if you will).

Perhaps, the Scriptures that states that he who is Good will be more Good, he who is Righteous shall be more Righteous, he who is evil shall be more evil is one of His Truisms - as He determines whether or not we are one of His vessels of Honour or one of His vessels of Dishonour.

B: OUR THOUGHTS & HOW WE DEAL WITH OUR THOUGHTS

Regarding thoughts, are we not to have the mind of Christ in us - well what is this mind of Christ -is it not to learn how He thinks and how His mind works and ask Him to make us like Him in this manner also. So, when we are given aspects of His thoughts and He makes them part of our thoughts, do we not then start to think like Him in that particular area of life.

I am by nature, a Planner - whereas others may be better at firefighting. In my life's experience, He has made me a very Good firefighter - now I do not know whether I am better at Planning or Firefighting. But I do know this, whether I Plan or I am forced (by circumstances outside my control) to Firefight, He prepares my steps (in minute detail). Nothing is by chance and He has worked out everything for all of us Perfectly. So I KNOW that He is in charge of all circumstances, and we are all in His Hands - to do whatever He has determined we will all do each second of each day.

Let us focus of His Son, Jesus Christ. Did not Jesus give all credit for His Goodness to His Father. Did Jesus disagree with His Father. Can Jesus do anything without His Father. Jesus is teaching us how to be like Him (Jesus Christ). Now let us imagine that Our Father has completed His Plan for Humanity - and ALL Mankind and All Angels are now in His Image. What will our hearts desires be (but to do what He says and please Him). What will our thoughts be (but to have the Mind of Christ and be One with Our Father). What will our speech be (but to speak Holy and Pure and Praise Him for His Goodness in Giving us Life). What will our actions be (but to live our lives in His Light {His Knowledge} and in His Love {His Purity and Holiness of Heart and unselfish}). Will we be like robots or machines or dictated to - no, as we will ALL be Like Him - and not only that - we will ALL be UNIQUE. Think about this for a while, what it means to be UNIQUE. Is Our Father UNIQUE. Is Jesus Christ UNIQUE. Will we ALL be copies of HIM (like a photocopy) or will we ALL be UNIQUE (ORIGINALS) IN HIS IMAGE.

Let us put to one side for a moment the matter of free will and who has it (including Our Heavenly Father); again, after He has completed His Plan for His Creation (and I know that I am asking you all to speculate, as we do not know what it will be like for sure at this time) - and focus on the jigsaw that is LIFE. Our Father has LIFE. He gave LIFE to His SON. His SON gave LIFE to the angels and each one of us. Now let us all think on this from any aspect that comes to our minds. Will are hearts contradict His Heart. Will our minds contradict His Mind. Will our voices contract His Voice. Will our actions contract His Actions. Will our being contradict His Being. The struggles of this present life for all of us in temporary. When it is over, we will be Like Him. But we will never be apart from Him - as He is LIFE and we cannot exist without Him.

In ending, perhaps these statements are all TRUE regarding His Elected Called Out Ones (and perhaps all Mankind and the Angelic Hosts):

1. Our Hearts are a work in progress; starting from our carnality into His Spirit.
2. Our thoughts are a work in progress; from the ignorant and unwise physical to the Truth that is His Spirit.
3. All our talking is a work in progress; from our ego to His Spirit.
4. All that we do is a work in progress; from our opinions and beliefs to His Absolute Truths.

So, with particular regard to our thoughts, should we not all at all times, evaluate them in order to determine whether they are selfish, correct, Good, evil, etc - or perhaps we should see if they are from our own ego, or from the evil one, of from Our Divine Holy Father in Heaven. Is there any other source for our thoughts.     

To try and put this simply, and to understand His Ways, I always check my own heart's desires. So I have a thought. Where did it come from. Is it my thought. Off course the thought is mine. Why did I think that thought. Do I know why I thought that thought. What is the desire of that thought that I had. Etc. Let us try an example. I have a thought that I should cheat on my wife. Where did that thought come from. Did it come from me. Would I ever cheat on my wife. I personally would never cheat on my wife; as I see it as a total betrayal to My Wife, to my three sons, to myself and to Him. Why do I think like this. Who made me think like this. How do I know that I will never, ever, cheat on my wife (as of myself I am nothing and I am not capable of doing any Good thing). Was it not The Lord who established in me to think like this as He thinks. Is it not He that will give me the ability to never cheat on my wife, as He put that desire in my heart in the first place. What about someone else in this situation. Let's say a non Called Out One of His that is a serial cheat on his wife. Has that serial cheat on their own the ability to change and do Good and never cheat of his wife. Off course not, as not one of us has of ourselves the ability to do Good. Who prevents him from not cheating on his wife. Is it not ultimately Our Father. Off course it is; as our Father has preordained that this serial cheat will experience his cheating as part of His Plan to make that serial cheat in His Image.

In other words, our thoughts are caused, as everything has a cause - even though the thoughts are ours as they are in us and unique to us. The Lord is the ultimate cause, even though the devil and / or our selfish desires may have caused our thoughts. But all, including our thoughts, have been preordained by Him to become our thoughts.

I hope I have shed light on this matter and not caused confusion.

Humbly.

George.