Hi Jeff, that is a thought provoking question. At first I could not found where Ray spoke on this directly, but then I found where this is covered indirectly. God is sovereign... this falls right in there with no free will at all, so yes even with our prayers they too are caused.
But our circumstances can vary greatly, causing each of us to have our own individual situation, therefore our prayers, though caused I would say are personalized to us. How we pray, what we pray for, is an individual thing and is developed in us according to God's will.
You were saying Ray used the word of us being "dragged" to Christ, and I have seen where that is true for some, but again I think this is an individual thing. I didn't feel dragged, certainly drawn, but I was so fed up with religion and the church, I welcomed these truths with open arms. I mean I'm just saying I believe that all of our experiences are distinct to each of us, as to what God is working in us.
Anyway here is a place that I feel covers the idea you was wondering about... "
God's leading us to prayer."
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html ---------------------
Here is a blanket statement of Scripture that proves Jesus did no more have a "free will" than anyone else does:
"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, but what He sees the Father do: for what things so ever He does, these also does the Son likewise" (John 5:19).
Do you know of one Scripture that contradicts this verse in John 5:19? If you don’t then you must admit that Jesus could not do anything by a supposed "free will" which is said to have the ability to act independently of God.
But wait, there’s more:
Jesus plainly had a will, but the Father willed that Jesus would bring His will into line with that of His Father. The Father would not allow Jesus to give up the good fight of faith. It pleased God to bruise His Son for our salvation,
"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: When you shall make His soul an offering for sin…" (Isa. 53:10).
God said that He would "make" the soul of Jesus an offering for sin. God doing the "making" is the CAUSE. Therefore, Jesus was not free to run from the cross. God inspired Jesus [caused] Him to pray. And God caused Jesus to pray that His Father’s will, would be done, not His Own will. It was a real battle for a few hours. The will of Jesus cried out for another way other than to drink the cup and go to the cross. Hour after hour He poured out His heart to His Father. And hour after hour His Father propped Him up so that He would not and could not give in to His flesh.
God MADE Jesus go through that spiritual battle of His will, but never for a second was the plan of God in jeopardy! God had clearly prophesied the positive outcome of this battle hundreds of years before its actual occurrence. And absolutely nothing in the history of the universe has ever thwarted God’s plan, purpose or intention.
The Father inspired [caused, made] Jesus state time after time, "Not My will but Thine, Not My will but Thine, NOT MY WILL BUT THINE"!!
It was the very words of His Father that Jesus prayed. Those words that came out of the mouth of Jesus first came out of the heart of His Father, and God’s Words never ever return to Him void.
"So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth [and into the mouth of Jesus]: it shall NOT RETURN UNTO ME [as when Jesus prayed back those same words to His Father] VOID, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I please, and IT SHALL PROSPER in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isa. 55:11).
As I have said a hundred times to my detractors, your argument is not with me, but with God and His Word.
I will show you from Scripture that the thoughts, words, works, and deeds of Jesus were only those things that came directly from His Father, not from some phantom "free will" of His own.
And so the very words that Jesus prayed that night in the garden were the very words of His Father, and the words of His Father of the purpose for which they were sent. But then again, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
When there is a conflict between wills regarding the bringing about of that which pleases God, whose will is it that will always win out? Is it possible for man’s will to thwart the will and intention of God? Does man possess such a God-defying power? Can man with his illusionary free will, will against and contrary to the predetermined plan and intention of God Almighty? No! No, he can’t. And yes, we do have a Scripture on that:
"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
When our very own Lord cried out in agony to His Father because His flesh did not want to go through the crucifixion necessary because of the sin of the world, whose will prevailed?
"And He said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from Me: nevertheless not what I will, but what YOU WILL"
And He comes and finds them sleeping…"
"And again He went away and prayed, and spoke the same words. And when He returned, He found them asleep again…"
"And He comes the third time…" (Mark 14:36-41).
Now then, what was the outcome of this heart-wrenching prayer and request of our Lord to His Father? Was the will of our Lord free to override the will of His Father? Or did not Jesus recognize that it was His Father’s will that would prevail and that His will was not free to think or do contrary to His Father’s intentions? Answer:
"And he came the third time, and said unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour IS COME; behold, the Son of man is betrayed [is being betrayed] into the hands of sinners… and when they had crucified Him…" (Mark 14:41 & 15:24).
Clearly: It "pleased" God to crucify Jesus, and it was God Who "worked in His Son both TO WILL and TO DO of His Father’s good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
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The very second that something causes one’s will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free.
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When God’s time came to release Israel from bondage, we read this:
"And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage. And God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them" (Ex. 2:23-25).
And just what "caused" Israel to "cry unto God?" Their own free will? No. "Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried…" There is always a cause, but it is never man’s fabled free will.
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God and the Scriptures allow no place for any reality of man having his OWN WILL that is FREE from the sovereignty of God’s operations of all.
No, it was "the hand of the LORD" that caused Israel to first say they would obey and later decide to not obey. It was "the hand of the LORD" that caused Joseph’s brothers to hate him, sell him into slavery, and then later to bow down to him. It was "the hand of the LORD" that put Samson and the Philistine woman together, but as with these and hundreds of more dealings by "the hand of the Lord" mentioned in Scripture, they "KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS OF THE LORD."
Do you "know NOT" that
all that you have said and done today, "was OF THE LORD?"
Most of humanity is born, lives, does evil and good, then dies, and "KNEW NOT THAT IT WAS OF THE LORD."
In Part C of this series, I will show you a statement where God Himself tells us that when He uses someone for His purpose, the one being used thinks that he himself is planning and carrying out the desires of his own heart and is making the choices of his own will; whereas God tells us that it is HE and not the one being used that is in totally control of everything, and that the one being used is totally unaware that he is being used like an inanimate object that doesn’t even have a brain!
Yes, God tells us that this is how He operates in ALL THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH! A few have been aware of God’s operation of all, down through the centuries; most however, have not. I will share these Scriptures with you next time. Robots? Nay, we are but clay (albeit ‘fearfully and wonderfully made’ clay, Psalm 139:14) in the hands of the Master Potter.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat