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"So - Is there any difference?"

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Nelson Boils:
"Matthew 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I know people who would teach that to the hilt.  That [kind of] person would never think to have a gun, that if an enemy approached he would shoot them…NEVER.    But he does have a mean Rottweiler.
So  - is there any difference?  You’ve got a gun…I’ve got a Rottweiler.   That’s fooling yourself, not fooling God.   Talk about a converted heart…the carnal mind will devise ways to pretend it’s keeping the “higher commandments” - it’s NOT.  People come up with trickery, tomfoolery, as they say."  - L.Ray Smith

Or someone has a security company guarding his house, so that should the enemy try to steal from him,the security guys can come and shoot the enemy for him - basically,the security company will do the deed for him.

"So - is there any difference? You've got a gun...I've got a Rottweiler" and he's got a security company guarding his home or business?

arion:
Question;

Suppose when Ray was still alive that he and Manuella were sitting at a table in a restaurant quietly eating their dinner and minding their own business.  In walks a drunk looking for a fight.  Ray tries to ignore him and then the guy starts to push Manuella around and strike at her.  Do we think that Ray would just sit there and not defend his wife because after all he has to 'love his enemy'. 

We can get stupid about these things and religion sometimes gets stupid.  We know that God loves us and yet, sometimes he becomes harsh [our perception] with us....does he not?  Does that mean he no longer loves us?  And also look at how God deals with the wicked.  He even kills the wicked man and yet without sin.  And yet he loves the wicked man as we know he sees him as he shall be someday and not as he currently is.

We are not God of course and neither is it our task to judge the wicked in this lifetime.  We are to live at peace with all men as much as we are able.  I want to get out of this life with never having to take another life or hurt anyone else and I pray that God never puts me in that position where I would do so.  Up until now I've never had to do that.  I served in the military for many years and was ready to take a life and yet God was merciful to me and I never did so even though at the time I would of thought I was justified because I was serving my country. 

I don't have a Rottweiler but if I was married, had small children and happened to have one as a pet and if that pet dissuaded someone from breaking into my home or harming my children I wouldn't think it to be a bad thing.  This is a wicked and violent world that we have to live in.  It is my goal to get out of this life in a way that honors God in what I do.  I just pray I'm never put into a situation where I would do something that would dishonor my calling and so far that has been the case.

Kat:

Hi Nelson, we certainly live in a hostile world, we know full well there is crime and corruption everywhere. We work to make ourselves's a comfortable home and we certainly don't want anybody to break in a steal our stuff, much less do harm to our family. Even when we are out somebody could rob us and take our money. How do we defend ourselves? Should we arm ourselves so we can protect what is ours? Is it alright in the eyes of God to kill a thief/enemy in order to protect yourself, family and home? I think it is about attitude... do we plan how we should protect what is ours, buy a gun, just in case? Is there certain circumstances that would allow yo to kill somebody that threatened you?

Well the answer is in the Scripture you gave as to what Christ said about this - "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"?  Is there any room in there to kill somebody under any circumstances? Well what about defending yourself, is that wrong?

Mat 5:39  But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

I simply see no where in Scripture that allows for a believer to be violent. Isn't God with us (in us) at all times, so that He is fully aware of our circumstance and nothing can happen to us without His knowledge? We must trust and believe God can and will deliver us according to His will and there is no situation beyond His control.

Nahum 1:7  The LORD is good, A stronghold in the day of trouble; And He knows those who trust in Him.

2Kings 17:39  But the LORD your God you shall fear; and He will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies." 

There are some dramatic cases in Scripture where God intervened to protect His people that serve and obey Him.

Dan 3:23  And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
v. 26  Then Nebuchadnezzar went near the mouth of the burning fiery furnace and spoke, saying, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come here." Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego came from the midst of the fire.
v. 27  And the satraps, administrators, governors, and the king's counselors gathered together, and they saw these men on whose bodies the fire had no power; the hair of their head was not singed nor were their garments affected, and the smell of fire was not on them.

Dan 6:16  So the king gave the command, and they brought Daniel and cast him into the den of lions. But the king spoke, saying to Daniel, "Your God, whom you serve continually, He will deliver you."
v. 19  Then the king arose very early in the morning and went in haste to the den of lions.
v. 21  Then Daniel said to the king, "O king, live forever!
v. 22  My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you."

Yes God is all powerful and He uses His great host of angelic servants that are His great warriors, and there is even a Scripture where Christ seems to say there are angels specifically used to watch over the elect.

Mat 18:10  "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

And also this Scripture that shows there are always things going on in the heavens that we are just not aware of.

2Kings 6:15  And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?"
v. 16  So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
v. 17  And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

So we should never be concerned for our safety, sometimes we may even have a trial to show us our true heart/attitude, because God already knows it. But be assured our great God is very capable of protecting us.

Psa 91:1  He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
v. 2  I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."
v. 3  Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence.
v. 4  He shall cover you with His feathers, And under His wings you shall take refuge; His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
v. 5  You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
v. 6  Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

lilitalienboi16:
Here is a similar thread, of sorts, on killing, violence, defending ourselves, serving in the military etc...

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15890.0.html

A very relavent verse:

Isaiah 51:7 "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." 12-13, "I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?"

We are His people whose hearts have written upon them the law of God.

Remember, Love does no harm, so anything that does harm is  a transgression of God's spiritual law. That would include violence, killing, murder etc...

Kat's examples of God's protection of those that are His are perfect examples of how God is able to save and protect us from all harm.

Here is another very awesome testimony to God's power and deliverance:

2 Kings 19
1 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.

2 And he sent Eliakim, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests, covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.

3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and blasphemy; for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.

4 It may be the Lord thy God will hear all the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God; and will reprove the words which the Lord thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that are left.

5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah.

6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say to your master, Thus saith the Lord, Be not afraid of the words which thou hast heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.

7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.

8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed from Lachish.

9 And when he heard say of Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, Behold, he is come out to fight against thee: he sent messengers again unto Hezekiah, saying,

10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God in whom thou trustest deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.

11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, by destroying them utterly: and shalt thou be delivered?

12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed; as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Thelasar?

13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the king of Arpad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, of Hena, and Ivah?

14 And Hezekiah received the letter of the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up into the house of the Lord, and spread it before the Lord.

15 And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, and said, O Lord God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

16 Lord, bow down thine ear, and hear: open, Lord, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent him to reproach the living God.

17 Of a truth, Lord, the kings of Assyria have destroyed the nations and their lands,

18 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.

19 Now therefore, O Lord our God, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the Lord God, even thou only.

20 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, That which thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria I have heard.

21 This is the word that the Lord hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

23 By thy messengers thou hast reproached the Lord, and hast said, With the multitude of my chariots I am come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon, and will cut down the tall cedar trees thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the lodgings of his borders, and into the forest of his Carmel.

24 I have digged and drunk strange waters, and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of besieged places.

25 Hast thou not heard long ago how I have done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into ruinous heaps.

26 Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded; they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the house tops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up.

27 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me.

28 Because thy rage against me and thy tumult is come up into mine ears, therefore I will put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.

29 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such things as grow of themselves, and in the second year that which springeth of the same; and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruits thereof.

30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.

32 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shield, nor cast a bank against it.

33 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the Lord.

34 For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh.

37 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword: and they escaped into the land of Armenia. And Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.

Anyway the thread I linked might have some other helpful information in regards to this discussion.

God bless,
Alex

Nelson Boils:
I think the best example from scripture is Jesus allowing the Soldiers to kill him.He didn't retaliate,even though he knows he could've,even though he had the power to retaliate.

Mat 16:25 "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it,but whoever loses his life for me will find it."

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