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"So - Is there any difference?"
octoberose:
Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."
The above is written about Rome. Rome! What governing authority in the history of the world did not defend it's people? What governing authority does not have consequences for doing harm? None. Read verse 4, "But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason... they are agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. "
I have a house alarm but do not expect it to protect me if God wills ill. But I am also aware that I do not leave an open house as a temptation for someone to do wrong. I lock my car door and probably most of you do to. Why tempt someone in their moment of weakness?
Years ago we were in West Berlin and I lost my purse. Which of course means I lost my ID card and I was in the middle of communist Germany. My husband was so upset and so worried that he wouldn't be able to get me home anytime soon. Of course I was upset but I kept praying for the poor soul that stole my purse and wondered what his life must be like. Our hotel key was also in the purse which gave us some fear that someone would break in the room. You know what happened? It really was amazing. That guy brought my purse to the hotel because the name was written on the key. He said he found it, but I have always believed he saw our reaction and saw our young children and God caused him to repent from taking it.
So, lock your door, watch your kids and your belongings, and have mercy on everyone around you. I believe that is what is expected of us.
Jeff:
Kat,
I think the way you presented Scripture was inspired.
It's our nature to protect, but our nature is also carnality. Within my nature is the perceived ability to protect my daughter from harm. Isn't that the essence of carnality? That "we" can do "something"?
It's God who wills and does good. Are "we" more capable than God?
There are two parts to me, which is an obvious thing to say, but maybe something i don't consider often enough. My carnality, which desires to be a man, and my spirituality that desires to be Godly.
What is my responsibility regarding the lives of my family, and what is my responsibility to God? God is sovereign. He doesn't need me to stand in His place.
It's true that there is no possibility, apart from God's intervention, that I wouldn't protect my daughter and granddaughter from harm, but that is likely, me telling God that I can do it better.
The way you expressed this, is in its essence Godly, and righteous. When you break everything down, the Truth is that God is in control of everything, and unless God wills it there is nothing I can do that would improve something unless that's His plan.
Our carnality leads us away from God. Our obedience and faith brings us closer to Him. I think that's the answer to this dilemma.
What you expressed is obedience and it was inspiring.
God bless,
Jeff
arion:
--- Quote from: Jeff on November 23, 2015, 09:32:16 PM --- Within my nature is the perceived ability to protect my daughter from harm. Isn't that the essence of carnality? That "we" can do "something"?
It's God who wills and does good. Are "we" more capable than God?
--- End quote ---
Here is where I think we can go off on a tangent. We tend to see some things as black and white only. Are there not shades of gray as well? If as a earthly Father you labor to provide and protect your wife and children does that mean your not trusting in God's provision? If you go out and work your job to provide for your family does that mean that your not trusting in God's provision? Or, conversely does God rather expect you to be active and do what you can do? Tis true that we can do nothing in and of ourselves but do we sit back and fold our arms waiting for manna out of heaven or do we get busy doing what we can do with what God has given us and then let the results be up to him.
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
We can take it a little bit further. Do we have insurance on our homes and vehicles? Do we have health insurance? Do we have a savings account in a bank, a pension or a 401-K account? Most of the members here including myself are people of very modest means but we also have a few who are rather wealthy as far as material goods go. If you have a lot of investments and a stock portfolio does that mean you are not trusting in God's provision or rather are you trying to be a good steward with what God has given you? If you or your family are sick and go to a doctor does that mean that you have no faith and are acting out of carnality instead of trusting God for healing? Or can God choose to heal by intervention of a human doctor as well as by a direct answer to prayer? Do we not pray for healing and go to the doctor and let God bring the healing in the way that he chooses to?
Well then what about protecting your daughter then or another mans daughter? If God puts you in the position by his sovereign foreknowledge to intervene against a tragedy does that mean your not trusting in God's provision or did he put you there in order to use you as an instrument? That God may indeed directly intervene and use his angelic host I do not doubt but if God has me in a position to protect the weak and innocent then I'll do what I can at the time. As a dad if another man was to rise up to protect your daughter on the street from harm would you be upset at him because he interfered with God's provision or rather would you not be profoundly grateful to God for putting someone there to watch out for your daughter?
What I think it boils down to like in most things is a heart issue. For those that have the insurance on their homes and possessions along with investments their hearts can be totally wrong and what they are doing is motivated by fear of poverty and lack of trust in the provision of God. Likewise we can run to a doctor out of fear at every sniffle and were really not trusting in God to keep us healthy or we can totally be trusting in God's provision to provide for us materially and physically and go to the doctor occasionally as it's a prudent thing to do. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I might take some sort of action or do something that at the heart of it is totally out of fear and not in trusting God and you might be able to do the same thing in complete faith and be totally trusting in God. For myself I do what I can do with what God have given into my hand in all areas of my life but at the same time I know the results are totally up to God. As the wag once said God may indeed give you the ingredients but he still expects you to cook your own dinner.
Kat:
Arion, I understand what you are saying... no we cannot sit back and wait for God, I've always said we have to strive to do the best we can. When I say God is sovereign and has predetermined all things, I do realize we don't know what the future is, so that we should be active in surviving and not waiting on God.
God has brought about things in a way that human can survive with what He has placed in this world, people have learned how to use all these things to meet our needs, but it takes a lot of work on our part. God has also given us minds that can learn and discover incredible things for the good of mankind. We just have to do the best we can in whatever situation we are in.
We have been given the ability to think, learn, reason and figure things out, and we have great love for and desire to care for our families and we are accountable for providing their needs too. Yes it is wise to have insurance for the emergency that might and probably will arise, certainly we use doctors when there is a need. And yes we certainly protect the loved ones from any harm, it would be ridiculous to think a normal person would sit back and let harm come to a child.
If I saw somebody drowning, I would not think that God should save them, certainly I should do whatever I could to help them. If our child was wandering towards a busy street of course we would stop them. We do whatever we can to give our families a safe environment and watch over them, yes indeed. And we should also help a stranger in need or in peril as well. I guess it comes down to, if you find yourself being shot at, would you take up a gun and kill them first or pray for God protection? What would you have more faith in? All of these are just hypercritical situations and we don't really know how we might respond, but usually we have thought of these type things and plan in our minds what we would want to do.
I now have 3 young grand children and I would never stand by and let harm come to them, I would put myself between them and any danger. But should I take up a gun and kill somebody that threatened them? I certainly think not, I really think I would die for them, but not kill for them. The Scripture that have been posted are explicit that we should not act in a way to bring harm to others. Yes the world has different ideas about these things, but that is not what I consider, it is the Scripture where we should get our guidance.
Matt 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lareli:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 23, 2015, 04:24:24 PM ---God INTENDED the evil that Joseph's brothers did for good. It was 'good' for Joseph first, and because of that it was 'good' for the brothers. That's the Gospel of the Kingdom, in shadow.
No, I don't think you can say that it was a moment of brilliance in the minds of the brothers. But it was a moment of brilliance in the Mind of God to purpose this and to have it recorded in Scripture. Paul had the mind of Christ...the brothers were wicked and ignorant. You could also say Joseph gained Wisdom. Jesus is Lord, however. Whether we are dialed into wisdom or washed along by our own carnality, it is within the plan and purpose of God for Good.
--- End quote ---
Indeed.
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