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[Jeff]

I've wondered about the creation in which we exist in relation to our Creator and there is an obvious connection between the two but I've wondered in what way?  I've been re-reading some of Ray's email responses regarding evolution and I thought about the ever-present worldly battle between science and religion and it occurred to me that neither side can see the forest.

Science pitted against religion and vice-versa makes absolutely no sense.

Religion is man's device and science is something that God created when He made the universe.  The comparison doesn't work and it's because neither camp understands the things we've learned from God through Ray's teachings.  And I'm sure that's nothing compared to who He really is.

Anyway, regarding what Kat wrote about the difficulty we have understanding God in the way He actually exists, is something I hope will be revealed.  Ray wrote that he understood something about this but was challenged in finding a way to show it in Scripture as opposed to just explaining it.  Ray also said that he didn't see God as a being because He can't be contained. We're so limited in what we can understand without God revealing it to us. We can't compare it to anything.

Physics and especially Quantum Physics is constantly changing our perception of the universe at an amazing rate.

There's a theory that has to do with the physical structure of our universe.  After discovering subatomic particles scientists realized that while atoms are physical  - what they're made of is likely not.  They seem to be made up of swirling vortexes of energy - which from that perspective means that we're creatures (as is all of creation) made of energy and vibration.

A physicist by the name of Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine." (And that was way back in the first half of the previous century)

I couldn't help but think - Spirit.

[Dave in Tenn]

I've had the same thoughts, Jeff.  It covers a lot of ground for me, scripturally. I don't know that we are 'right', but if we aren't then the truth is MORE wonderful, not less.

[Kat]

There's a theory that has to do with the physical structure of our universe.  After discovering subatomic particles scientists realized that while atoms are physical  - what they're made of is likely not.  They seem to be made up of swirling vortexes of energy - which from that perspective means that we're creatures (as is all of creation) made of energy and vibration.

A physicist by the name of Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine." (And that was way back in the first half of the previous century)

I couldn't help but think - Spirit.

Well doesn't that just figure, that it really does come down to spirit. Maybe that what this Scripture means.

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (NKJV)

Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. (CLV)

Col 1:17  And, He, is before all, and, they all, in Him, hold together; (Rotherham)

Anyway, regarding what Kat wrote about the difficulty we have understanding God in the way He actually exists, is something I hope will be revealed.  Ray wrote that he understood something about this but was challenged in finding a way to show it in Scripture as opposed to just explaining it.  Ray also said that he didn't see God as a being because He can't be contained. We're so limited in what we can understand without God revealing it to us. We can't compare it to anything.

I think that truth, in every aspect, certainly is being revealed here by putting together all the little bits and pieces we are bringing out here from our studies.

Isa 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little."

This little unity we have here is such a blessing. We have those newly having their eyes opened, to those who have been here for years and God is here to give knowledge of the truth to each of us as we grow and He sees fit.

Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Just a qualifier.

I'm not hanging my faith on any existing (or yet to exist) theory in quantum physics.  Scripture tells me to look at 'creation' if I want to 'see' the qualities of God.  This process is multi-faceted and endless.

Rom 1:20  For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

We had a memorable (to me) discussion several years back where everybody was invited to say what they thought Spirit was.  Every answer was different, and every answer beautiful in it's own way.  And even more sweetly, nobody tried to enforce or force their own thoughts on anybody else.

It's OK with me whatever anyone thinks, provided they don't assign character-traits to God which demean Him or cause the nations to blaspheme.  Even those two, however, are within the plan of God and I won't argue long with anybody who does those.   

[Jeff]

I've had the same thoughts, Jeff.  It covers a lot of ground for me, scripturally. I don't know that we are 'right', but if we aren't then the truth is MORE wonderful, not less.

Very true Dave. We just don't know much. I think that no matter what we'll eventually "know" we're going to be flat on our spiritual faces trembling in pure awe.

[Dennis Vogel]

Science pitted against religion and vice-versa makes absolutely no sense.

One difference is scientist for the most part do not lie.

[dave]

Thank you Kat for your work and this discussion, wonderful. Hey Dave about this,
"We had a memorable (to me) discussion several years back where everybody was invited to say what they thought Spirit was.  Every answer was different, and every answer beautiful in it's own way.  And even more sweetly, nobody tried to enforce or force their own thoughts on anybody else."
Was this discussion hopefully on the board or somewhere else? It is a question, I have been thoughtfully dealing with. Thanks.

[Dave in Tenn]

It is definitely 'here' Michah.  I may be 'remembering' it rosier than it was, but that would only go to show that comments and threads can strike different people differently, as the Lord works.

I'll try to look it up in Search.  I think I remember some of the "keywords".

[Rhys 🕊]

Thank you Kat for your work and this discussion, wonderful. Hey Dave about this,
"We had a memorable (to me) discussion several years back where everybody was invited to say what they thought Spirit was.  Every answer was different, and every answer beautiful in it's own way.  And even more sweetly, nobody tried to enforce or force their own thoughts on anybody else."
Was this discussion hopefully on the board or somewhere else? It is a question, I have been thoughtfully dealing with. Thanks.

Could be this one

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12868.0.html

Just what is spirit?


Rhys

[Dave in Tenn]

That's the one, Rhys.  Detective Rhys...I'm sorry.  And look who started it.   

[dave]

Yeah  been on my mind awhile Thanks

[Jeff]

Just a qualifier.

I'm not hanging my faith on any existing (or yet to exist) theory in quantum physics.  Scripture tells me to look at 'creation' if I want to 'see' the qualities of God.  This process is multi-faceted and endless.

Rom 1:20  For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

We had a memorable (to me) discussion several years back where everybody was invited to say what they thought Spirit was.  Every answer was different, and every answer beautiful in it's own way.  And even more sweetly, nobody tried to enforce or force their own thoughts on anybody else.

It's OK with me whatever anyone thinks, provided they don't assign character-traits to God which demean Him or cause the nations to blaspheme.  Even those two, however, are within the plan of God and I won't argue long with anybody who does those.   

I didn't mean to suggest that God is any of things I described.  I don't think that God is energy, I think He created energy.  The quote I found just reminded me of Spirit (or better yet - spirit).  God is infinitely superior to anything He has created .

I think that my understanding of my Creator is feeble and flawed and without merit.  Whatever I might understand, at any point, is only because God wants me to understand.  The rest is just foolishness.

[Dave in Tenn]

I didn't take it that you were, Jeff.  Yes, all the things we see reveal what God is 'like' in some way, no matter how simple or profound.

Spirit is likened to 'wind' often.  Indeed, the word itself is strongly related to 'wind'.  Yet is a hurricane the 'same' as a gentle breeze?  There are many things about 'wind' that can teach us about God without God 'being' the wind He created.  On the other hand, is the creation so separate from the Creator?  I don't think Ray thought so, and neither do I.  He gave it (and us) attributes of Himself, and "in Him we live, and move, and are." 

Surely we are allowed (and I think we're encouraged) to look deeply into creation, to 'see' "His eternal power and Godhead."  But as you said, what we think of as 'knowledge' in some fields is out of date almost as soon as it's 'published'.  And each new 'knowledge' seems mostly to form new questions.  That's why I remain full of wonder and not ready to stake a full claim to any claim. 

 

[cjwood]

 

I think about that in my fiery trials. Am I walking around moaning and groaning and 'smelling like smoke?" .

rose, your post made me sit up and take notice.  especially the part i bolded above.  those words opened my eyes up really big.  truly something for me to mediate on. 

thanks sister,
claudia

[Jeff]

I didn't take it that you were, Jeff.  Yes, all the things we see reveal what God is 'like' in some way, no matter how simple or profound.

Spirit is likened to 'wind' often.  Indeed, the word itself is strongly related to 'wind'.  Yet is a hurricane the 'same' as a gentle breeze?  There are many things about 'wind' that can teach us about God without God 'being' the wind He created.  On the other hand, is the creation so separate from the Creator?  I don't think Ray thought so, and neither do I.  He gave it (and us) attributes of Himself, and "in Him we live, and move, and are." 

Surely we are allowed (and I think we're encouraged) to look deeply into creation, to 'see' "His eternal power and Godhead."  But as you said, what we think of as 'knowledge' in some fields is out of date almost as soon as it's 'published'.  And each new 'knowledge' seems mostly to form new questions.  That's why I remain full of wonder and not ready to stake a full claim to any claim. 

 

No, I know you weren't addressing that to me, Dave. I just realized that a disclaimer of my own would be a good thing.  I wonder why we're all scattered so far apart?  This method of communication actually works really well here, when compared to so many communication failures I've experienced in the past 15 years, beginning when the world descended into digital madness.  I imagine it's because God led us here, and we're of like mind, but still it's curious that we're in a variety of llocations.  Fairly well spread out. I like to believe there's a reason and a purpose in that. I'm in Minneapolis but it seems as though there are more in the southeast US, or is that not right.  It's nice that its in Europe and possibly other locations globally.

[lilitalienboi16]

I didn't take it that you were, Jeff.  Yes, all the things we see reveal what God is 'like' in some way, no matter how simple or profound.

Spirit is likened to 'wind' often.  Indeed, the word itself is strongly related to 'wind'.  Yet is a hurricane the 'same' as a gentle breeze?  There are many things about 'wind' that can teach us about God without God 'being' the wind He created.  On the other hand, is the creation so separate from the Creator?  I don't think Ray thought so, and neither do I.  He gave it (and us) attributes of Himself, and "in Him we live, and move, and are." 

Surely we are allowed (and I think we're encouraged) to look deeply into creation, to 'see' "His eternal power and Godhead."  But as you said, what we think of as 'knowledge' in some fields is out of date almost as soon as it's 'published'.  And each new 'knowledge' seems mostly to form new questions.  That's why I remain full of wonder and not ready to stake a full claim to any claim. 

 

No, I know you weren't addressing that to me, Dave. I just realized that a disclaimer of my own would be a good thing.  I wonder why we're all scattered so far apart?  This method of communication actually works really well here, when compared to so many communication failures I've experienced in the past 15 years, beginning when the world descended into digital madness.  I imagine it's because God led us here, and we're of like mind, but still it's curious that we're in a variety of llocations.  Fairly well spread out. I like to believe there's a reason and a purpose in that. I'm in Minneapolis but it seems as though there are more in the southeast US, or is that not right.  It's nice that its in Europe and possibly other locations globally.

Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Zecheriah 13:7-9 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

1 Peter 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

No, I know you weren't addressing that to me, Dave. I just realized that a disclaimer of my own would be a good thing.  I wonder why we're all scattered so far apart?  This method of communication actually works really well here, when compared to so many communication failures I've experienced in the past 15 years, beginning when the world descended into digital madness.  I imagine it's because God led us here, and we're of like mind, but still it's curious that we're in a variety of locations.  Fairly well spread out. I like to believe there's a reason and a purpose in that. I'm in Minneapolis but it seems as though there are more in the southeast US, or is that not right.  It's nice that its in Europe and possibly other locations globally.

Hi Jeff, we are indeed spread out... even with the very first generation of believers they had to begin to spread out rather quickly because of persecution. We just don't know about the believers through the centuries, but if their had been large groups of them, then there could have been some sort of record left, but there is nothing that we know of. And now we certainly are spread out, kind of sprinkled around the world it seems.

In thinking about why would this need to be, for one thing, we certainly cannot judge one another by appearance this way. Here we have the bare bones of discussion and nothing physical to influence or possibly to get in the way of that. We humans have a tendency to make assumptions about people from how they present themselves, by the way they look or talk or their mannerisms... we can be very judgmental. This way certainly eliminates that, don't you think? So we only have people's words to go by here, but that does say a lot about a person.

Here is another idea, well more of a speculation. In the resurrection I wonder if when the elect are given authority over cities (Luke 19), will those cities be in areas where they once lived, hence they would be from all areas of the world? I mean I can see how that could be a benefit for them.

Now I don't think that an elect would need to know the lay of the land or how to get around town, that's not what I mean... those raised up from centuries past would not even recognize their towns anyway. But still knowing the customs, culture or even religions of the people would seem to be helpful in dealing with those people. Just a thought about the next age and how thing from this life will probably play a part it things then.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

Hi Kat,
Jesus alluded to some of the things your are saying recorded in a few verses in Luke 22:28-30.

28-Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29-And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me:
30-That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Joel

[Kat]

Hi Joel, now that you mention it, that is right. Jesus told the Apostles that they would judge the 12 tribes, which were their ancestors which were from the same area they were living in. Thanks for added that, I find it's just interesting.

mercy, peace and love
Kat