> Off Topic Discussions

New years resolution .

<< < (8/10) > >>

Extol:

--- Quote from: largeli on January 12, 2016, 01:57:22 PM ---I can't say that I ever believed in an un-caused will which is what Ray taught is the real definition of free-will.. Can anyone here say that they ever believed they possessed an un-caused will?
Has anyone ever heard of, or read anything written by anyone arguing that we posses an "un-caused will"?

--- End quote ---

I don't know if I've heard it in those terms ("un-caused will"), but yes, I believed that, and so do many Christians: that while there may be some small influences, those influences do not cause any of our choices; we are free in the end to rise above those influences and say NO. The influences can't cause us to choose one thing or the other; no, we are free to choose whichever way we want. When I was growing up in Church, I heard it said--I said it myself!--"If only Adam and Eve hadn't sinned!" As if all they had to do was turn away and say No! Yes, we knew the serpent tricked Eve, but what a fool she was to fall for it! She could have just shown a little fortitude and said No, and we'd be living in the Earthly Paradise to this day. Ironically, we acknowledged the evil state of the present world to be a result of Adam and Eve's sins--all of the suffering in history, traced back to two people, caused by two people--yet still thought we all had free choice!

I remember making similar comments about other Old Testament characters: What a fool! What an idiot! How can they go after idols again?

I don't remember ever using the terms free will or free choice back then. But looking back I can see I absolutely believed that we could make free uncaused choices...even though I daily acknowledged God as Master of the Universe!

I went to the website of the Assemblies of God (world's largest Pentecostal denomination), and No. 4 of their 16 Fundamental Truths is this:

WE BELIEVE...though originally good, Man Willingly Fell to Sin–ushering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.

Mark 10:18--And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Romans 8:20--For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: largeli on January 12, 2016, 01:57:22 PM ---Thinking more on this... We do have a will. Our will isn't forced it's voluntary. No one forces us to do anything (per Ray). So if by free-will one means free from force then yes we do have free-will. Free from force. Which is what I believe that basically everyone in the entire world is referring to when they say "free-will".

I can't say that I ever believed in an un-caused will which is what Ray taught is the real definition of free-will.. Can anyone here say that they ever believed they possessed an un-caused will?
Has anyone ever heard of, or read anything written by anyone arguing that we posses an "un-caused will"?

--- End quote ---

Largeli,

There is no such thing as uncaused ANYTHING. Neither the will or choice are free from 'force' or any other causative agent. Everything in this universe, including your will ( and the choices you make based on that will) is shaped, molded, affected, CAUSED by millions of unseen factors. Consider your genetics, your sex, your parents, your upbringing, your education, your wealth, your culture, your geographical location, your religion, satan, spiritual wickedness in high places, God's law, God's spirit, a weak heart etc.... These all FORCE or INFLUENCE or CAUSE your will.

The 'free will' is more in line with the idea of uncaused 'CHOICE' rather than the 'uncaused will' as you suggest. Regardless, both are false.

The will is the desire of the heart which then influences the choices (the expression of those desires through the mind) we make. The will itself is influenced by the many things I mentioned above.

I believe ray focused more on free choices rather than 'uncaused will'' but seeing as our choices are direct results of that will, it could be argued that he was saying that. Regardless, neither of these things are free from causative FORCES.

As ray said, it comes down to: And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

God be with you,
Alex

Dave in Tenn:
This may sound strange, but I'll type it anyway.

It's been almost 8 years since I have given any serious thought to any alleged ability to make choices on my own without influence, cause, force or whatever. 

WHATEVER I thought I had concerning will or choice was wiped away almost 8 years ago.  It came as a stunning revelation, not from a carefully put-together "Theory of the Non-Existence of Free-will".  The experience left me just a little bit insane for a short while, and shaken to the core for quite a while longer as I 'looked back' over my life and saw the working of God in it to date, and now, since.  Since it was such a life-shattering experience, though, I must have thought SOMETHING was 'true' about 'free-will'.  Now I have mostly forgotten ever believing in it except for instances where 1.  I could not do what I wanted to do, and 2.  I could not refrain from doing what I didn't want to do.

Both of those are the most clearly 'revealed' and understood in my own case by remembering the night I stumbled onto BT with one thing in mind, but wound up having my life turned up-side down instead.  Jesus is Lord. 

lareli:
Dave your reply reminds me of several movies where the premise is that a bunch of seemingly random situations culminate in a bigger picture or plot unbeknownst to the actors involved.. Also reminds me of an article/blog or whatever you want to call it where the writer documents all these stories of people on the morning of 9/11.. People who would've and should've been in the twin towers but seemingly random occurances kept them from going to work that morning.. "Everything happens for a reason" is something people may say at one time or another but the truth of that statement "everything happens for a reason" never fully resonates with most. Not only does "everything happen for a reason" but "none of it is up to us" is that right?

Fate, destiny.. You all here believe in that don't you? I can consider my wife and state with absolute assurance that "we were meant to be with each other". It's pretty interesting to think that God designed my wife and I specifically to be with each other and to be used by Him to mold and shape each other and our kids too.

Every bad and hard thing any of us has experienced was tailor made specifically to mold/shape us as God wants us to be, correct? If this is so, than we should be able to look back at not just the good things in our past but also the hard and terrible things we've all individually experienced and we should be able to praise God for those hard things, right? Seeing as how there is no wasted motion in Gods plan. Not one atom moves independently apart from Gods will and plan. Everything we will suffer, we know, is absolutely necessary for Gods plan and therefore we should rejoice in all circumstances right?

Easier said or even understood than actually done though.. If I get a flat tire on the way home or if I get a phone call telling me someone close to me is sick or hurt, the carnal in me may arise and lash out with emotion. Perhaps that's what Paul was talking about when he said "the thing I know I should do, I do not do, and the thing I don't want to do, I actually do !"

lareli:
Forgiveness is much more easily extended once we understand that there's no free, un caused will or choice.

Christs words "forgive them for they know not what they do" have a deeper meaning. He could've also said "forgive them for they can do no different"?

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page